Liszt - Transcendental Etude 10

[danhuyle]

I really need help with Liszt Transcendental Etude no.10. What's wrong with it? Everything you can think of. No matter how hard I try, I can't play fast like the pros.

[pianoman53]

You're playing way too difficult things. It's good to aim for something that always is a bit too hard, but this is too hard for you.

[danhuyle]

Do you know any pieces, regardless of difficulty, that can help learn it?

[pianoman53]

Well, start with some Mozart and Bach. Maybe do some Brahms exercises, and some czerny. Uhm... Some Beethoven sonatas (not appassionata or hammarklavier or any of those major ones). And don't you have a teacher that could tell you those things?

[pbryld]

I listened two minutes into it.

I thought it was quite well played, although a bit slow (but you know that). I don't think you need to play it MUCH faster though. I guess you just need to play it many more times in order to speed it up a bit.

[lostinidlewonder]

I think you are on the right track, how long have you been playing this etude for? You need to aim to technically play as gentle and comfortable as possible, whenever you reach sections where you feel tensed up you need to act against this. The more comfortable you become the more automatic speed will increase. If you do not use a gentle technique you will find you cannot go much faster without strain and increased chance for error. You will notice as you speed up also inefficiencies will become more problematic, so practicing fast may in fact be beneficial so you can pinpoint exactly what parts are troublesome to increase.

I do not think you need to study other pieces because there was no major signs that your technique couldn't adequately control the notes and fingering requirements of this technical beast. Keep up the good work!

[danhuyle]

I learned it back in 2006 when I was in my 3rd year as a college undergraduate. I also taught myself how to play Transcendental Etude no5 as well in that same year. Unfortunately, my teacher wouldn't teach me how to play this. She taught me how to play TE9 - Ricordanza.
Like most pianists, I had it memorized, however rhythm was lost in exchange for speed and virtuosity. In 2007, I decided to leave it altoghter. It was too hard to fix. I got back into practicing this about a month ago before I uploaded the video.

The principles I used when I learned Brahms Op118 no2&3, Beethoven Op10/2 in F Major, Shostakovich op87/2, Albeniz El Puerto from Iberia book 1, Mozart k332, Bach Prelude and Fugue in C minor wtc1. It's count aloud with the metronome, rhythm, phrasing and consistent tempo. 

Time to grab a handful of Mozart sonatas, Bach Prelude and Fugues, Czerny studies, Liszt consolations and come back to this.

[mcdiddy1]

I think you play this piece very well. I think you should continue to work it .

Your phrasing of melodic lines could be stronger. here is an agitato feel with this piece and it would benefit you to know when to speed up and when to slow back down. I don't think it all needs to be blazingly fast because the melodic line would sound crunched together. You may want to consider speeding up some of your lateral shoulder movements especially when that hand has the melody . When the music is soft, you should try and get a flurry, atmospheric sound by having your fingers slightly degreasing the keys and practice in creasing the speed by playing a tremolo type of exercise. When the melody is in the right hand, let the melody be connected by the pedals and strike the keys quickly and move on to the next melody note. I think with some slight technical adjustments you can achieve the sound and the interpretation you want. You may want to consider watching the movements of pianist who perform this piece and analyzing the speed the execute particular passages and how it relates to the overall speed of the piece.

I hope you continue your great progress on your piece. You definitely have the technical capacity to play this as well as you want to.

[pianoman53]

I learned it back in 2006 when I was in my 3rd year as a college undergraduate. I also taught myself how to play Transcendental Etude no5 as well in that same year. Unfortunately, my teacher wouldn't teach me how to play this. She taught me how to play TE9 - Ricordanza.
Like most pianists, I had it memorized, however rhythm was lost in exchange for speed and virtuosity. In 2007, I decided to leave it altoghter. It was too hard to fix. I got back into practicing this about a month ago before I uploaded the video.

The principles I used when I learned Brahms Op118 no2&3, Beethoven Op10/2 in F Major, Shostakovich op87/2, Albeniz El Puerto from Iberia book 1, Mozart k332, Bach Prelude and Fugue in C minor wtc1. It's count aloud with the metronome, rhythm, phrasing and consistent tempo. 

Time to grab a handful of Mozart sonatas, Bach Prelude and Fugues, Czerny studies, Liszt consolations and come back to this.

I'm sorry, but if you've played it since 06, and still doesn't get it up to tempo, it's too difficult... As you said: Go back and get proper technique before trying to atempt one of Liszt's most difficult etudes.

[pianowolfi]

The impression I get from your recordings of Te 10 and of Scriabin's 8,12:

the Scriabin is not really a problem for you, regarding the notes. The TE 10 seems to be a bit more of a problem for you, regarding the sheer text. But that's nothing insurmountable. Strive for an effective technique by avoiding unnecessary movements, stay closer to the keys when it gets fast, find the shortest way between positions etc.

What I actually miss is the music, in both. You have more or less learned single notes, chords, runs and patterns, but it seems like you don't think in phrases, slurs, connections between parts and developments. I'd much more often ask myself "where does this melodic line lead to?". You don't seem to care about buildups, dramatic climaxes, it seems like your one and only goal so far is getting the correct notes at an appropriate tempo.

[danhuyle]

Rhythm is everything in music. Get that wrong and the whole thing falls apart. You can have a virtuosic technique and display virtuosity, whatever that means, and if the rhythm is not present, everything sinks.

@pianowolfi You got me there. Don't how you got it, but that's correct. It is my goal to get the right notes and rhythm at an appropriate tempo. If you listen to the pros, they all have it under control. Right notes, rhythm and tempot are way more important than the music?

@pianoman53 You're right, it is too difficult for me. My rhythm is still a stinker and my inability to play fast just drags the playing through the mud, on top of that, I'm a bad interpreter.

What would you do if your piano teacher won't teach you a piece you're passionate about? Do you attempt it or do you not play it at all and say "yeah, they were right, it's too hard. I'm good enough to play it. I give up."

[pianoman53]

If you listen to the pros, they all have it under control. Right notes, rhythm and tempot are way more important than the music?

@pianoman53 You're right, it is too difficult for me. My rhythm is still a stinker and my inability to play fast just drags the playing through the mud, on top of that, I'm a bad interpreter.

What would you do if your piano teacher won't teach you a piece you're passionate about? Do you attempt it or do you not play it at all and say "yeah, they were right, it's too hard. I'm good enough to play it. I give up."

It's not just playing the right rhythm... You just play everything through, like most people do when they play the most difficult thing they can find.
If you start playing easier pieces, hopefully you'll find it much easier to create music and not just notes and rhythm. If you "listen to the pros" you also hear that there is way more than notes and rhythm. There is direction, phrasing, time... Don't be to much just about rhythm. I mean, anyone can play straigh 8th or quarters, that's not the problem. If that was the thing with piano, everybody would be able to call themselves pianists.

And if your piano teacher wont let you play a piece you're passionate about, s/he probably have a reason not to play it. How would you feel if you had a student, who started playing the piano couple of months ago, and wants to play Islamey? No matter how good teacher you are, you wont be able to teach the student how to do it. And you would get bored as hell if you even tried. Teachers are not just some wall, on which you can throw whatever you want, and they give it back (whatever that means...?!). I read some other of your posts, and you said that you had like 5 teachers during 3 years, cause none of them wanted to teach you Mazeppa, or whatever. My best advice for you would be to start listening to your teachers. They do know more than you, and they have more experience.

I'm not saying that you should do whatever your teacher tells you to, but if 5 teachers tells you that something is too difficult, maybe they're right and you're wrong...
It's not about giving up nor not, it's about waiting until you at least are almost ready to play something, and to do yourself and the piece some sort of justice...

[pianovlad1996]

I listened to your interpretation and I think you play too metronomic and in the same nuances. Also as pianoman53 said, if you can't play the piece in tempo since 2006, you should try another piece. Rythm is only 10% of the whole interpretation. You lack in emotion, you don't make crescendos, diminuendos. Phrasing is 50% and technique 40%. Look at Cortot. His technique isn't incredible-he misses notes in all his interpretations but his phrasing is unmatched, envied even by Horowitz. Hope you will understand me. 

[danhuyle]

Can't say I never tried. I think you'd all agree that when something is too hard for you, you come to realization and make that decision yourself. I realized this way before I posted the video.

Reason - Can't play fast. Tied semiquaver rhythms.

It's one of those where you just have to leave it and come back numberous times. Thanks for the comments. 

Have you ever had that feeling where you know that something is too hard for you, you try it anyway, then you come to realization? It's better than sitting and wondering if you have what it takes to play a piece.

Really? Cortot's technique isn't incredible? For a guy who plays Chopin Etudes and other virtuoso repertoire. 

[pianoman53]

Can't say I never tried. I think you'd all agree that when something is too hard for you, you come to realization and make that decision yourself. I realized this way before I posted the video.

Reason - Can't play fast. Tied semiquaver rhythms.

It's one of those where you just have to leave it and come back numberous times. Thanks for the comments. 

Have you ever had that feeling where you know that something is too hard for you, you try it anyway, then you come to realization? It's better than sitting and wondering if you have what it takes to play a piece.

Really? Cortot's technique isn't incredible? For a guy who plays Chopin Etudes and other virtuoso repertoire.

I'm sorry, but that is really amateur-style. And I know, you are an amateur, like most of us are. But that's no reason to act like one. If a piece is too hard for you, and you know it, there is no reason to try just to know it for sure. It's not better to waste time on a piece that is way out of your league, instead of playing something that isn't. And since you think the best way is to come back to the piece, AGAIN, even though you're still not good enough, I guess this comment wont help anyway.

I'm sorry to sound harsh, but it seems like you're not listening. Your former teachers all told you to play something easier, and you still went on to only play very difficult liszt repertoire...

[danhuyle]

I'm sorry, but that is really amateur-style. And I know, you are an amateur, like most of us are. But that's no reason to act like one. If a piece is too hard for you, and you know it, there is no reason to try just to know it for sure. It's not better to waste time on a piece that is way out of your league, instead of playing something that isn't. And since you think the best way is to come back to the piece, AGAIN, even though you're still not good enough, I guess this comment wont help anyway.

I'm sorry to sound harsh, but it seems like you're not listening. Your former teachers all told you to play something easier, and you still went on to only play very difficult liszt repertoire...

@pianoman53 How do you know when you're ready to play a piece? How do I know if I can play something or not?

[pianoman53]

For a start: You ask your teacher. They either say Yes or No. Second: Most of the times, at least for me and most pianists I know, if you need to ask yourself if you can play a piece or not, you are not ready.

Go back to easier pieces ffs! Stay away from Liszt for a while, or at least the transcendental etudes and those really difficult ones. Maybe Liebestraume and stuff like that. But I don't know... If you feel like What pieces you are playing are more important than How you play them, that's up to you.