Octaves And Wrist Tension

[jcmusic]

Hi,

Working on a simple piece, but having problem with octaves, as my wrist tenses up.  Bartok Sketches for Piano, Op. 9, #5.

Have tried only 1-5, and alternating 1-5 and 1-4, but still get wrist tension.  Also feel the tension with just the 1-4 stretch.

I was taught that ANY wrist tension at all indicates something needs to be done differently.  Maybe I'm doing something wrong with lateral rotation at the wrist?

I always try to focus on imagining a "weak" wrist (my teacher's words), and floating above the keys.  Any wrist tension (besides making playing less enjoyable) seems to keep me from getting weight into the keys.

Have looked at the other posts on octaves, but I'm not sure the wrist tension issue was addressed in detail.

Thanks,

John

[nyiregyhazi]

Hi,

Working on a simple piece, but having problem with octaves, as my wrist tenses up.  Bartok Sketches for Piano, Op. 9, #5.

Have tried only 1-5, and alternating 1-5 and 1-4, but still get wrist tension.  Also feel the tension with just the 1-4 stretch.

I was taught that ANY wrist tension at all indicates something needs to be done differently.  Maybe I'm doing something wrong with lateral rotation at the wrist?

I always try to focus on imagining a "weak" wrist (my teacher's words), and floating above the keys.  Any wrist tension (besides making playing less enjoyable) seems to keep me from getting weight into the keys.

Have looked at the other posts on octaves, but I'm not sure the wrist tension issue was addressed in detail.

Thanks,

John

If your wrist is tense it's probably because it needs to be not to collapse- so your instincts make it so. You need to activate more movement in the hand itself, in order to support the wrist from there. This worked wonders for me. I barely use arm pressures any more except in the loudest of octaves. The more you involve the muscles of the whole arm, the more the wrist will need to be stabilised- hence your tensions.  The further back you apply the energy from, the more joints will have to brace to transmit it.

[jcmusic]

Thanks.  I'm usually very relaxed, but the octaves brought up some wrist tension.

I do usually play with the whole arm thrown from my shoulder and back.  Teacher used to describe it as a "whip" motion.  Create a very nice tone that way.

I have very little facility for speed, which is probably the reason you mentioned.

Probably need lessons again, though it's been years.

Thanks again,

John

[nyiregyhazi]

Thanks.  I'm usually very relaxed, but the octaves brought up some wrist tension.

I do usually play with the whole arm thrown from my shoulder and back.  Teacher used to describe it as a "whip" motion.  Create a very nice tone that way.

I have very little facility for speed, which is probably the reason you mentioned.

Probably need lessons again, though it's been years.

Thanks again,

John

This can be effective in the right situation- but how fast can you crack a whip? As fast as Horowitz plays octaves? The more you crack from the whole arm, the harder it is to keep the movement concise enough to be ready for the next one.

The trick is to catch in the hand- not to fix the arm into a single unit. Think of a cat landing. It doesn't stiffen in preparation or it would hurt its legs. Neither does it "relax" its legs and have its whole body crash into the floor, as its legs give way. Just as a cat times the action of its legs to stop its ribs cracking against the floor, the hand needs to activate through the key to stop the wrist crashing down further. It's like a flick. When using a whip motion you need to stop the wrist collapsing either with stiffening or with a catching action in the hand. I'm going to make a film to show this eventually. When the hand times the flick right, you can truly beat the sh*t out of the piano without any heavy landing or bracing.

[jcmusic]

Thanks again,

Slowly becoming a little clearer.  Now, how to practice this.

Again, probably need lessons.

John

[tails]

Just a suggestion. try and play Hanon's piece number 58 and (when you master it) 60. They're bound to give the pianists wrist tension from what I've known. Try to play it quite relaxed. 58 is hard for you to play Relaxed, that's your goal. Playing "perfectly" is quite not that difficult, but playing "perfectly" along with relaxed fingering and wrists, is the hard part.

[jcmusic]

Thanks very much for the Hanon suggestion.

Practiced the Bartok piece today trying more movement from the wrist, while trying to stay relaxed.  Seemed a little better.  Some 1-4 fingerings didn't produce as much tension.

Relaxation is the key, it seems.

John

[nyiregyhazi]

Thanks very much for the Hanon suggestion.

Practiced the Bartok piece today trying more movement from the wrist, while trying to stay relaxed.  Seemed a little better.  Some 1-4 fingerings didn't produce as much tension.

Relaxation is the key, it seems.

That's the standard way of looking at it, but I wouldn't really agree. It's the result of doing it well- not the cause of doing it well. If you were actually relaxed everywhere, your palm would collapse into a cluster and then you'd fall off the piano. To focus on the relaxation can take attention from the activities that permit the relaxation of the wrist being physically possible. If you learn how to carry out the actions that make relaxation possible (without a cluster), you'll easily get the relaxation. If you just think "relax" your hand will resort to some unknown means of stopping your itself hitting the cluster and then sliding off. It certainly won't be an act of relaxation that stops that. Unless you focus on the actions that permit a relaxed wrist, you're basically leaving it to chance how your body will behave.  

It's about the difference between negatives and positives. If you think "relax" that's a negative. It's the absence of any effort. But to stop your hand hitting that cluster, you need a positive activity. Even if you don't intend one, your brain is going to instigate one- because you're really not willing to let the hand hit a cluster, no matter how much you intend to relax. How is thinking of trying not to do anything going to make that positive activity efficient? To focus on relaxation is basically to relinquish control over what you are doing and just see what comes out. It's to focus on what you're not supposed to do- rather than on what you ARE needing to do.

In all of the years that I strained myself too hard trying to play octaves, relaxtion was right up there in my intentions at virtually all times. However, learning a few particular hand actions means that I scarcely need to think about relaxation- despite staying vastly more relaxed than I could before. It just comes because the action I focus on makes it possible to relax. Even now, if I push too far then thinking "relax your wrist" gives me no improvement at all. Rather, I work on developing the balance that allows it relax and then check whether it is succeeding. Why look at what you're not supposed to do- rather than the means of avoidance? It's like going into a swimming pool chanting "don't drown, don't drown etc.". Why not concentrate on learning to swim instead?

[jcmusic]

Thanks again!

Think we're on the same wavelength.  I didn't mean to say I was focusing on relaxing.  You're right.  It's the result of doing things correctly.

My piano teacher used to say if you were completely relaxed, you'd fall of the piano bench.

With the Bartok today, I experimented with turning the hand various ways, and different fingerings, while checking the level of hand and wrist relaxation.  I noticed the result was a little more relaxation.

I've often thought that (relative) relaxation was the test for doing a movement correctly/incorrectly.

John

[jcmusic]

Tried the Hanon # 58, hands separately.  Yep, a set-up for wrist tension.  Will try it some more VERY slowly.  Those inner 2 notes are hard to play with a good tone (AKA without tension).

[jmanpno]

Thanks very much for the Hanon suggestion.

Practiced the Bartok piece today trying more movement from the wrist, while trying to stay relaxed.  Seemed a little better.  Some 1-4 fingerings didn't produce as much tension.

Relaxation is the key, it seems.

John

Heaven's!  The last thing you need to do is relax.  Raise the wrist so that it is the main fulcrum, allow the knuckles of the fingers to become less prominent and you'll be fine.  Oh, and forget that 1-4 nonsense!