How Many Lines Above and Below the Grand Staff to Learn?

[nickadams]

I have been trying to memorize 4 lines on either side of the EGBDF and GBDFA because in most music i looked at, there were hardly ever any notes beyond that...


How many lines do you guys recommend practice with?




 I have a piano midi software that throws random notes at me to practice sight reading and i can choose a range where I want them to be. How big?

[jimbo320]

I always thought 3 lines each way and use the octave symbols there after...

[nickadams]

thanks. By the octave symbol do you mean the "8va"? Also I am looking at pathetique mov. 1 and it has a lot of notes in the bass that go down 4 ledger lines to the F, and to the G 4 ledger lines above the treble as well...

But do you think those are rare and it's better to just memorize up to 3 ledger lines above and below?

[keypeg]

Instead of memorizing there are other ways to get at the notes. 
- For example, when you include all the notes, lines notes and space, notes they go in alphabetical order: ABCDEFG-ABCDEFG etc.  It is really handy to learn to say your 8-letter alphabet forward and backward so that you can count up and down from where you are (including known ledger lines.
- There are some spots that you can clue in on.  In the bass clef, the clef sign's knobbly thing is on F, so you always know where F is.  If you know middle C, then your counting the alphabet works again (C,D,E up to the next line).  If you know that two ledger lines below the bass clef is C, then you can count backward and know the third ledger line must be A (C,B,A).
- Recognizing intervals is also handy.  Notes on adjacent lines or spaces are a third apart so you can count up and down - C to E.  If they skip a line then they are a fifth apart which is the distance of the outer notes of a triad - C to G for example.

So if you use all those tricks, then if you don't know some of your ledger lines you can still figure out the notes by going from the lines you do know.

[nickadams]

Thanks Keypeg, but when I say memorize, I mean being able to nearly instantaneously find the right key on the keyboard without looking when I see a note on the staff.

So if I am having to count up and down the alphabet and then find the key on the keyboard, I feel like it would take a very long time to sight read something.

[keypeg]

Thanks Keypeg, but when I say memorize, I mean being able to nearly instantaneously find the right key on the keyboard without looking when I see a note on the staff.

So if I am having to count up and down the alphabet and then find the key on the keyboard, I feel like it would take a very long time to sight read something.

Well, that's also possible.  Supposing that you're looking at a note which is on the 4th ledger line below the bass staff, and you know that 2 lines down is C.  You'll know it's a 5th down from the C and this is F.  Since you know where F is on the piano you can scoot down in an instant.  Another way is that since you know it's a 5th down from C, your hand can feel that distance of a fifth from the C, and again you land on your F.  Sometimes music has a ridiculous number of ledger lines when it's been badly edited.  If you have some of these tricks up your sleeve, then you don't have to miss a beat.  "Intervallic reading" is actually one kind of reading people use.

[nickadams]

bumping this for more opinions. The first step in learning to sight read for me is just being able to identify notes on the staff, so before I move on to intervalic reading etc. I need to know how many ledger lines I should know above and below the treble and bass staffs? I realize there is more to sight reading than just memorizing notes' positions on the staff but I thought it would be a good first step before moving on....

[nyiregyhazi]

Instead of memorizing there are other ways to get at the notes.  
- For example, when you include all the notes, lines notes and space, notes they go in alphabetical order: ABCDEFG-ABCDEFG etc.  It is really handy to learn to say your 8-letter alphabet forward and backward so that you can count up and down from where you are (including known ledger lines.

I would  very rarely count one note at a time- except to go only one note away from a reference point. Personally, I always count in thirds. It's far easier to keep track.

[nyiregyhazi]

bumping this for more opinions. The first step in learning to sight read for me is just being able to identify notes on the staff, so before I move on to intervalic reading etc.

To be honest, I'd personally say that you're on the wrong track, if you want to keep those separate. Just learn the spaces for each clef and think by interval from the spaces to find any lines. Next thing you know, you can recognise any note.

On the stave, I only recommend learning spaces. Everything else is easy to find from there. On the leger lines, just notice ACE wherever it turns up. Again, everything else is extremely easy to find by interval, once you have those.

[nystul]

A lot of times music needs ledger lines because of octaves.  If you can recognize the octave, it reinforces that you know the right note.

[nickadams]

To be honest, I'd personally say that you're on the wrong track, if you want to keep those separate. Just learn the spaces for each clef and think by interval from the spaces to find any lines. Next thing you know, you can recognise any note.

On the stave, I only recommend learning spaces. Everything else is easy to find from there. On the leger lines, just notice ACE wherever it turns up. Again, everything else is extremely easy to find by interval, once you have those.

well since I am using the prestokeys computer program hooked up to my keyboard to help me learn, I just was wondering how many ledger lines to have it test?

It's something like this: https://www.musictheory.net/exercises/keyboard-reverse

except it is connected to my keyboard, I can adjust the tempo, the range of notes to appear, and it has the bass and treble clefs. Also, the notes travel from the right to left and when they pass over a vertical line that is when I have to press the right key. So the window is very short to find the right one.


Should I do 6 ledger lines?

[nyiregyhazi]

well since I am using the prestokeys computer program hooked up to my keyboard to help me learn, I just was wondering how many ledger lines to have it test?

It's something like this: https://www.musictheory.net/exercises/keyboard-reverse

except it is connected to my keyboard, I can adjust the tempo, the range of notes to appear, and it has the bass and treble clefs. Also, the notes travel from the right to left and when they pass over a vertical line that is when I have to press the right key. So the window is very short to find the right one.


Should I do 6 ledger lines?

Well, maybe. I'm a little doubtful as to the value though. I'd say that I can recognise up to about 4 or 5 lines up or down without any real thought. After that, any value of memorisation is going to be relatively low, in my opinion. Very few extreme notes are notated outside of a context in other notes, that send you in the right direction. Can anyone actually see 6 or 7 lines at a glance, with certainty and without counting them up or down? Maybe, but I find that the process of counting them thinking of moving a third at a time is virtually instant anyway. I'd rather be safe than sorry when the notes go that far. Either I'll be comparing to a previous note, or I'll be counting the lines and picturing the notes as I go up.

I don't see any particularly great value in being able to spot any more than that. If you develop intervallic reading, the process of deducing any others is so quick, that trying to memorise them just seems a bit pointless. In fact, I didn't even make an effort to learn beyond 3. The others just start to fall into place, via observation.

In a way I like the cold isolation of notes, as a reading exercise. However, I'd also question how far the value of having to pinpoint single notes actually goes. Why not develop your reading in a more meaningful context? Above all, don't waste your time trying to memorise unnecessary extremes, until you know the basic notes inside out- and can already read by interval.

[nyiregyhazi]

I don't see any particularly great value in being able to spot any more than that. If you develop intervallic reading, the process of deducing any others is so quick, that trying to memorise them just seems a bit pointless. In fact, I didn't even make an effort to learn beyond 3. The others just start to fall into place, via observation.

Come to think of it, I don't think I made any real effort to learn even the three. I recall memorising that three lines down in the bass clef is A- which is an important reference point From there (and above the treble clef) ACE is just so obvious that you don't need to force yourself to memorise it. Just encountering the notes and using the logic of thirds should make that happen. I find it rather synthetic to be trying to force yourself to memorise large numbers of notes as disconnected individual symbols, rather than get used to them through logical progressions regarding intervals.

[nickadams]

Come to think of it, I don't think I made any real effort to learn even the three. I recall memorising that three lines down in the bass clef is A- which is an important reference point From there (and above the treble clef) ACE is just so obvious that you don't need to force yourself to memorise it. Just encountering the notes and using the logic of thirds should make that happen. I find it rather synthetic to be trying to force yourself to memorise large numbers of notes as disconnected individual symbols, rather than get used to them through logical progressions regarding intervals.

Well every time I try to practice it takes me forever to find the right note on the keyboard! So I was thinking the prestokeys could help me identify and find notes very fast so my practice on intervalic reading/ scales/ arpeggios/ training exercises would go much faster.

[nyiregyhazi]

Well every time I try to practice it takes me forever to find the right note on the keyboard! So I was thinking the prestokeys could help me identify and find notes very fast so my practice on intervalic reading/ scales/ arpeggios/ training exercises would go much faster.

But how often do you have to find a note from nowhere? How often is there no sense of physical comparison? Are you playing legato and feeling the connections between fingers? Are you associating distances, or treating notation as a series of individual coded messages for every separate note?

If learning this way, I honestly wouldn't bother playing the individual keys at all. Just look at where they are each time and make sure you can see . What does it matter whether you throw a lone finger at it (outside of any bigger context) or whether you get it there quickly or not? It's just about being able to associate the note you see on the page with the note you see on the piano. I'd probably disconnect this type of thinking from physical motions altogether and make it pure practise for the mind. However, what is equally important is to start working more on comparisons. Relate distances on the page to distances on the piano and distances between fingers. Scarcely a single note gets played in a situation where it is not going to be referenced to the previous one.

[nickadams]

But how often do you have to find a note from nowhere? How often is there no sense of physical comparison? Are you playing legato and feeling the connections between fingers? Are you associating distances, or treating notation as a series of individual coded messages for every separate note?

If learning this way, I honestly wouldn't bother playing the individual keys at all. Just look at where they are each time and make sure you can see . What does it matter whether you throw a lone finger at it (outside of any bigger context) or whether you get it there quickly or not? It's just about being able to associate the note you see on the page with the note you see on the piano. I'd probably disconnect this type of thinking from physical motions altogether and make it pure practise for the mind. However, what is equally important is to start working more on comparisons. Relate distances on the page to distances on the piano and distances between fingers. Scarcely a single note gets played in a situation where it is not going to be referenced to the previous one.

do you have any recommended books to teach sight reading? Or how would you recommend a beginner go about learning to sight read? I am not very comfortable creaing my own practice program and I feel better if I have a program to follow

[keypeg]

I would  very rarely count one note at a time- except to go only one note away from a reference point. Personally, I always count in thirds. It's far easier to keep track.

That's interesting because a couple of years ago I encountered a teacher who made a big deal of being able to recite your letters backward as well as forward.  If I'm actually reading music I don't "count" either direction.  If something is a 4th - say from D to G, well you see the 4th and your hand goes up that interval without thinking DEF(#)G, and meanwhile your eyes recognize the D and the G.  But I do seem to remember that it was useful to be able to know the alphabet backward (just can't remember when  ).

[nyiregyhazi]

That's interesting because a couple of years ago I encountered a teacher who made a big deal of being able to recite your letters backward as well as forward.  If I'm actually reading music I don't "count" either direction.  If something is a 4th - say from D to G, well you see the 4th and your hand goes up that interval without thinking DEF(#)G, and meanwhile your eyes recognize the D and the G.  But I do seem to remember that it was useful to be able to know the alphabet backward (just can't remember when  ).

It's definitely important to be able to do that. However, whether we're talking about leger lines or wider intervals, there's very little value in counting either upwards or downward at a rate of just one note or letter at a time. Obviously plays a role in passages where notes move up or down only one at a time, but I don't think it has a very direct bearing on anything more advanced than that.

[nyiregyhazi]

do you have any recommended books to teach sight reading? Or how would you recommend a beginner go about learning to sight read? I am not very comfortable creaing my own practice program and I feel better if I have a program to follow

Just get anything straightfroward and start thinking about putting simple notation into practise. If you haven't already been doing so, to be perfectly honest none of the leger lines would be of any use to you apart from middle C. It's far more valuable to have a small number of absolute reference points and learn the rest by personal discovery and through the association of getting from note to note. Fluent reading is a cross between comparisons and absolutes. It's a waste of time trying to memorise separate notes without acquiring a sense of how they all relate to each in context. You need to be developing a physical feel for intervals- not leaping for randomly chosen notes, as if it's just a test of pressing the right button.

[nickadams]

Just get anything straightfroward and start thinking about putting simple notation into practise. If you haven't already been doing so, to be perfectly honest none of the leger lines would be of any use to you apart from middle C. It's far more valuable to have a small number of absolute reference points and learn the rest by personal discovery and through the association of getting from note to note. Fluent reading is a cross between comparisons and absolutes. It's a waste of time trying to memorise separate notes without acquiring a sense of how they all relate to each in context. You need to be developing a physical feel for intervals- not leaping for randomly chosen notes, as if it's just a test of pressing the right button.

unfortunately I have already memorized all the notes on the bass and treble up to 4 ledger lines above and below!   I can find them very fast now, but I lack the sense of relation that you talked about...


How is paul harris' series called improve your sight reading??

[nyiregyhazi]

unfortunately I have already memorized all the notes on the bass and treble up to 4 ledger lines above and below!   I can find them very fast now, but I lack the sense of relation that you talked about...


How is paul harris' series called improve your sight reading??

Well, it's far from a problem to have memorised them! Just start relating them to each other and you'll be fine. I'm not sure about the Paul Harris book, but you don't necessarily need books that are specific to practise of sightreading. You just need to be doing it in the context of actually playing.