Dissonance lessened with distance? Extended chords

[Bob]

I'm thinking extended chords here.  If you've got an m2, that's dissonant.  So is an m9.  But a m16?  It's farther up.   The overtone series closes gets more congested the farther up you go.  It might be dissonant but it's not the same level of clash as an m9 or m9. 

Is there a point where the distance is so open that dissonance is reduced?  Why?  And is there a point where you could have any interval because the clash isn't going to be too great?

[ramseytheii]

I think it's a good question and not really one I am qualified to answer, but I have some ideas.  About the distance of dissonance, it definitely makes a difference, and that is really a major part of Debussy's art of piano composing.  The way he spaced dissonances, and also filled in harmony in the middle, was I think revolutionary for those hearing it at the time.  Probably the same could be said for Ravel.

I wonder if dissonances are less jarring when distant because of the overtone series.  Sorry to use such a cliche.  But if you think about it, the overtone series contains all the dissonances, but they are distant and less audible.  Perhaps when realized, the same effect is realized.  Dunno!

But good question!


Walter Ramsey

[cudo]

Indeed, this is a good question.

To proove whether it is right or not I did an experiment.

I did play an unisono phrase with both hands where the 2 voices are 5 octaves apart.
Than I did the same phrase where the 2 voices are 5 octaves plus 1 halftone apart.
So the second phrase consist of the dissonant interval of a b9 + 4 octaves.

Here are the 2 phrases.https://www.cisum.info/tuning.mid

In my opinion the second phrase doesn't really sound like a primary dissonance (what a b9 interval normally constitutes).

[Bob]

I was just wondering for playing 15th chords over scales.  To me a raised 15th didn't sound so bad, at least with all the thirds in between.  It wasn't quite the same as a m9 clash.  Maybe a +15th is equal to a M7 in terms of dissonance.

And then I was wondering if distance lessens dissonance a bit, if you can take a seventh chord and play another seventh chord a whole tone up to get a 15th chord, if you could do that again.  Seventh chord, up WT seventh chord, and a third up WT seventh chord.

I think I remember this from theory class.  That's how they can get different tonal centers going more clearly -- Put enough space inbetween and they sound separate.

[werq34ac]

To add to this,

I came up with an awfully dissonant version of mary had a little hand. Just play the melody in minor 9ths. It sounds awful... Also a whole tone scale in minor 9ths pisses off a lot of people.

But when I play it in minor 2nds, it just sounds like chromatic clusters rather than harsh dissonance.

This probably complicated things...

[Bob]

I'm thinking, yes, dissonance lessens the greater the distance is between notes of an interval.  A m15th isn't as dissonant as a m2 or m9. 

Although maybe there's a point at which dissonance is lessened, like the double octave.... Where the overtones are really starting to clump up up there.

[keypeg]

I had a sudden thought.  Given the equal temperament of piano tuning, won't that affect how you hear distant intervals if doing your listening via the piano?

[Bob]

I don't think the numbers are going to line up with any temperment.  The flat 7th/14th overtone/partial (whatever the tehcnically correct term is) I think is really, really flat.

Hmmm.... The higher up, the higher the frequency and the closer together they are.  I guess would have some effect but probably not a lot. 

[oxy60]

Check out twelve tone. Even though it should sound dissonant it really doesn't. It also helps to not fill in the middle. At a distance of two octaves you can get away with a lot.

[keypeg]

I don't think the numbers are going to line up with any temperment.  The flat 7th/14th overtone/partial (whatever the tehcnically correct term is) I think is really, really flat.

Hmmm.... The higher up, the higher the frequency and the closer together they are.  I guess would have some effect but probably not a lot. 

I wasn't going by numbers but by ear.  To play the piano you have to turn off part of your hearing because that tuning is a torture.