Scales, Scales, Scales ... Tell me about them!

[coffee_guy]

Hi Folks,

I have been playing under a year. I am an adult learner (but played guitar most of my life). Playing grade 1&2 pieces only right now. I enjoy learning classical pieces that much teacher selects, but mainly, I want to play folk and contemporary music as my ultimate goal. Anyway that's my background, now I want to talk about scales.

How often should I practice scales? How much time % wise should I allot? Should I practice all the scales I know each day, or just focus one the scales of the pieces I am working on. Or even just focus on one scale per week or even month?

The way I am doing it now is alternating sharp and flat scale keys. For example, I will practice all my sharp scales one day and the next practice my flat scales. I just alternate each day (When I have sufficient time). I try and devote 10 minutes per scale.

I would greatly appreciate feedback... thanks.

[raphaelinparis]

that will sound shocking to many people, but I never practise scales  and I am still progressing at a very good speed (according to my teacher). Maybe one day I will hit some limit and I will have to learn them, but so far so good, as long as I am progressing quickly without having to waste time on them, I keep on concentrating only on building my repertoire.
I have not enough experience to advise anyone to do like me, but the truth is : for the time being, I spend 0% of my time on scales and my playing is just fine.
FYI the last piece I learnt is Chopin nocturne #2 and I am currently working on nocturne #1.

[cse1217]

Hi!
You could practice the scale of the song which you are playing to familarise your fingering. It's actually very helpful to know the sharps and flats of the key by playing the scales. Once you are familar with the scales, you will be able to play the song more fluently.

For scale, it is important to play each note evenly and make sure the timing each notes get is the same so that you will be more fluent in your playing. As you practice the scale, you can play it faster to increase the speed of how fast you can play the piece

Cheers,
sheng en

[nyiregyhazi]

that will sound shocking to many people, but I never practise scales  and I am still progressing at a very good speed (according to my teacher). Maybe one day I will hit some limit and I will have to learn them, but so far so good, as long as I am progressing quickly without having to waste time on them, I keep on concentrating only on building my repertoire.
I have not enough experience to advise anyone to do like me, but the truth is : for the time being, I spend 0% of my time on scales and my playing is just fine.
FYI the last piece I learnt is Chopin nocturne #2 and I am currently working on nocturne #1.

Do you play the runs with the effortless finesse of Hofmann? "Fine" is all very well, but is it fantastic? Scales are certainly not a waste of time.

[brianlucas]

You could practice the scale of the song which you are playing to familarise your fingering. It's actually very helpful to know the sharps and flats of the key by playing the scales. Once you are familar with the scales, you will be able to play the song more fluently.

I agree. Playing the scale in the key of the song gets your fingers used to playing the notes of that scale.  The more familiar you are with the key, the easier it will be to play the song.

-Brian
www.brianlucas.com
www.pianoin8weeks.com

[mcdiddy1]

Do them, play them, and love them.

I am not an advocate that you need to play scales everyday , but at some point you should learn them all because they:

save you time in practice when you recognize a scale pattern
teach independent fingering in each hands
allows you to learn the "feel" of playing in a particulair key
etc etc.

Scales come with a number of benefits and no draw backs except they are not very fun to play for very long.

[raphaelinparis]

Do you play the runs with the effortless finesse of Hofmann? "Fine" is all very well, but is it fantastic? Scales are certainly not a waste of time.

of course it is not "fantastic" (in French, "fantastic" has a lot of meaning, my teacher will use this word the day I play the nocturnes like Samson François or Rubinstein, which might happen some day, but certainly not by next month).
I can say that I personnaly think that I have a good control of sound, i.e. I am able to produce what I want.
I struggle a bit with speed, and I think that this will improve with experience, not by spending hours on scales. As an adult, I have not much time per day (1h or 1h30 maximum) so I need to concentrate on what work gives me the more return on time spent. So far, I think that spending time on the specific "runs"  that I need to actually play is time better spent than working on scales (the fingering is usually not the same, because I always bump into quasi-scales with some "jumps" and the text book fingering is not applicable.)
That said, I welcome anyone that could explain me why it matters to practice scales, because I am open-minded, focused on the results, so if I have to do scales, let's go.
But so far I have only found three classes of people : those who say it is a waste of time (and some are/were renowned concertists, we all know about Richter for example, but I still read interviews in magazines where some concertist says she doesn't do scales); More subtly, there are people who say that doing them badly (unsupervised by a teacher) is a waste of time, eventhough it could help if it is well done.
And there is of course people that say that it is usefull but generally don't explain why.
So when I am faced with the problem of allocating my time on the piano, so far I choose not to do scales, but I am ready to change my mind if someone can give me the rationale and some sensible arguments for it.
Also I have the feeling (is it right?) that as long as you don't work on "virtuoso" repertoire where speed is a must-have, then you can probably live without scales.

[nyiregyhazi]

"of course it is not "fantastic" (in French, "fantastic" has a lot of meaning, my teacher will use this word the day I play the nocturnes like Samson François or Rubinstein, which might happen some day, but certainly not by next month)."

I'm not talking about playing a whole nocturne to their level. I'm talking about executing a passage work with the effortless ease and control they do. Those famous players who didn't practise scales could play them at the drop of a hat. Those who can't just play them at the drop of a hat have nothing to learn from that attitude.

"I struggle a bit with speed, and I think that this will improve with experience, not by spending hours on scales."

hope away. If you want to be able to play fast, you want a simple mechanism by which to practise the passing of the thumb ie. a scale. If you use a piece of music for this, the repetition required will become boring. It's far more interesting to do it in many keys than repeat a single musical passage to death. I'm not even going to bother listing the countless other reasons to practise scales. This alone is more than enough. A poster already listed other reasons earlier in the thread but you say you're not aware of any reasons for them? I suspect that you have heard many but simply didn't want to consider them.

"Also I have the feeling (is it right?) that as long as you don't work on "virtuoso" repertoire where speed is a must-have, then you can probably live without scales."

Well, if you don't value fine control either, nor the ability to play a wealth of standard passages virtually at first sight.

[mcdiddy1]

That said, I welcome anyone that could explain me why it matters to practice scales, because I am open-minded, focused on the results, so if I have to do scales, let's go.
But so far I have only found three classes of people : those who say it is a waste of time (and some are/were renowned concertists, we all know about Richter for example, but I still read interviews in magazines where some concertist says she doesn't do scales); More subtly, there are people who say that doing them badly (unsupervised by a teacher) is a waste of time, eventhough it could help if it is well done.

When you speak of your the first class of people you want to keep in mind renowned concert artist does not translate into piano pedagoge. These type of people may not have need to do many things most players had to do. It doesn't mean ignoring scales will put you on par with the best in the world. Every concert artist has learned scales, consciously or not, simply because scales are in the music. Practicing them daily is not necessary but knowing how to do them is.

The second group has a good point but once you know basic principles of fingering, thumb usage, wrist, and hand support, you do not need a teacher to watch you do it. If you are diciplined and dilligent you can learn all major and minor scales and then pull them out when you need to.

And there is of course people that say that it is usefull but generally don't explain why.
So when I am faced with the problem of allocating my time on the piano, so far I choose not to do scales, but I am ready to change my mind if someone can give me the rationale and some sensible arguments for it.

 Scales help to develop technique by strengthening the fingers and providing the grip that each finger needs while playing the piano. Playing the scales fast and then slow can help with finger control and also in creating more finger flexibility. Scales help to develop a good hand position on the piano. Scales teach key signatures and enhance sight reading skills.

I actually agree with some of sentiments of the groups of peoples. I think it is not necessary to devote majority of your practice time to scales as long as you play the instrument. But that is not an argument to say they are a total waste of time and of no benefit. I also think you can get the most of scales by having a teacher present but if you know some basic techniques you would do just fine learning them.

There are numerous good reasons to practice scales the problem is they tend to be practiced in a dry and boring way when they can be an exercise too practice different aspects of rhythm and wrist and arm techniques. The decision to actually listen to reasons and/or look up the purpose of scales is up to you but in a forum of piano teachers you aren't going to find many arguments against the potential benefits. If you hate scales there are other exercises such as Isidor Phillip - Exercises for Independence of Fingers which go through all the keys and use patterns you may find in music as well, however scales are easier .

[raphaelinparis]

"I'm not talking about playing a whole nocturne to their level. I'm talking about executing a passage work with the effortless ease and control they do."
Yes, I playthese 2 nocturnes with control and ease, and I don't feel "unconfortable", as long as I keep playing at a moderate tempo (which is still a reasonable one, in my opinion). Of course, I am just a student so glitches/erros still occur from time to time but overall, I am satisfied with what I hear eventhough I know that I can improve a lot my interpretation (I should add that I concentrate as much as possible on the sound and control, on the eveness of sound, etc so these are not "new" concepts for me, I spend a lot of time on that.)

"hope away. If you want to be able to play fast, you want a simple mechanism by which to practise the passing of the thumb ie. a scale."
I don't understand why the passing of the thumb is such a problem. Maybe I am just lucky that it is no more a problem for me, or I will understand later when I will try to play really fast and maybe I will hit some technical wall at some point.

"Well, if you don't value fine control either, nor the ability to play a wealth of standard passages virtually at first sight."
it is true than I feel limited in my ability to sight read mainly because very often I don't put the correct fingerings (especially left hand) and eventhough I know the correct notes and rythm, too bad...a wrong fingering means either a full stop or a very acrobatic move.
As I am becoming more and more interested in being a good sight-reader, if scales could help me in that respect, I would be happy to start doing them 5 -10minutes a day. But is that really going to help me, I am still wondering (if someone can say "yes" from his own experience, then I will happily give it a try).

[raphaelinparis]

The decision to actually listen to reasons and/or look up the purpose of scales is up to you but in a forum of piano teachers you aren't going to find many arguments against the potential benefits.

thank you very much for your balanced and friendly answer. I will give it a try. Actually you used a silver bullet for me when you spoke of enhancing my sight-reading. That is currently my main worry that I am not a good sight reader and I want to do whatever it takes to change that. I need that to build repertoire faster (plus, it's fun to sight read )
Maybe doing scales will improve other things (I hope so!) but I 'm ready to try just for sight reading. I will speak to my teacher asap, to see what she thinks.

[mcdiddy1]

thank you very much for your balanced and friendly answer. I will give it a try. Actually you used a silver bullet for me when you spoke of enhancing my sight-reading. That is currently my main worry that I am not a good sight reader and I want to do whatever it takes to change that. I need that to build repertoire faster (plus, it's fun to sight read )
Maybe doing scales will improve other things (I hope so!) but I 'm ready to try just for sight reading. I will speak to my teacher asap, to see what she thinks.

No problem. Different players get different benefits which is why they are fundamental. When I was asked to learn all my scales I was already a great sight-reader but learning them made me even better and I could not tell you how many times in music I chose a great fingering because I realized it is just a "G flat scale that starts on Db " etc. I didn't know I would benefit years later but I did. I hope you get the same thing.

[nyiregyhazi]

"Yes, I playthese 2 nocturnes with control and ease, and I don't feel "unconfortable", as long as I keep playing at a moderate tempo (which is still a reasonable one, in my opinion). Of course, I am just a student so glitches/erros still occur from time to time but overall, I am satisfied with what I hear eventhough I know that I can improve a lot my interpretation (I should add that I concentrate as much as possible on the sound and control, on the eveness of sound, etc so these are not "new" concepts for me, I spend a lot of time on that.)"

I'm talking about effortless runs that are executed with the same level of legato and dynamic control as those masters. Listen to Hofmann's ppp runs. If you think you're in that kind of league, sorry but the chances are slim indeed. Those who have mastered scales scarcely even need to practise these runs to achieve such quality. The fingers just unleash them at will.

"I don't understand why the passing of the thumb is such a problem. Maybe I am just lucky that it is no more a problem for me, or I will understand later when I will try to play really fast and maybe I will hit some technical wall at some point."

Well, either you're a master. Or you're playing repertoire that does not test your limits. You're limiting your progress if it's the latter.



"As I am becoming more and more interested in being a good sight-reader, if scales could help me in that respect, I would be happy to start doing them 5 -10minutes a day. But is that really going to help me, I am still wondering (if someone can say "yes" from his own experience, then I will happily give it a try)."

Of course it will help! Do you expect to reinvent the wheel? Just because there are departures from standard scale fingering does not mean that knowing the basics will not save a LOT of time. I struggle to imagine someone having to "learn" how to do the B flat minor scales in Chopin's Polonaise in A flat. If you can't just do it straight off, there's a serious problem. You can't learn such things from scratch as they appear, if you hope to play difficult repertoire. You have to just know these things.

[raphaelinparis]

I'm talking about effortless runs that are executed with the same level of legato and dynamic control as those masters. Listen to Hofmann's ppp runs. If you think you're in that kind of league, sorry but the chances are slim indeed.

ok so you want me to acknowledge that I am no Richter, no Lipatti, no Gould...guess what?  YES. YOU ARE RIGHT. I am not a concertist. Worse, I will never be a concertist. I can't play legato like Lipatti did, I am sorry about that and I will never be able to.
So if your point is to say "ha ha, you can't play like X or Y and it is the proof that you need to practice scales", then I respectfully disagree with that kind of thinking.

I found other messages more balanced than yours, and they actually convinced my to give it a try to scales, but yours did not help much.

When it comes to scales and exercises ,one sometimes get the feeling that it is almost like politics or religion. Come on, we're all pianist (at different levels of course), so maybe we can just discuss these things in a friendly and balanced manner.

[nyiregyhazi]

"ok so you want me to acknowledge that I am no Richter, no Lipatti, no Gould...guess what?  YES. YOU ARE RIGHT. I am not a concertist. Worse, I will never be a concertist. I can't play legato like Lipatti did, I am sorry about that and I will never be able to.
So if your point is to say "ha ha, you can't play like X or Y and it is the proof that you need to practice scales", then I respectfully disagree with that kind of thinking."

Why are you reading that as a negative? I was offering a wake up call about how self-limiting your cocky attitude would be and how much further you can likely improve yourself- not a criticism of your playing. I don't play like any of those artists either. Do you think I'm claiming to be some piano legend and saying "look how rubbish you are"? Well I'm not. However I AM taking action in a bid to improve myself- not saying either 'my current level will do' or 'bah, I'd never get that good anyway'. Realising how much more is possible makes me want to strive higher. That takes proper fundamentals.

All of those artists could play good scales. You're taking a defeatist attitude when you haven't even bothered to try acquiring the basic elements that they all had mastered. If you just drop that attitude, who knows? Maybe you'll be able to play a hell of a lot closer to the level of such artists? Sorry, but if a club footballer says he doesn't "need" to do general fitness exercises rather than just play (perhaps saying "I'll never be David Beckham anyway, so why bother?"), he's wrong. He could likely improve his performance tremendously and maybe even play for better sides. Similarly, if an amateur pianist thinks he doesn't "need" to practise scales, he's wrong. Are you looking to simply get by or do you want to improve yourself?

"When it comes to scales and exercises ,one sometimes get the feeling that it is almost like politics or religion."

No. It's a tool for improvement. I don't believe in drilling. I believe in making sure you can do the exactly what you need to be able to do. In that sense, great artists who said they didn't need scales were right. They can play them easily anyway. But those who do not play them fluently and think they don't need them are a different case.

[brogers70]

As others have said, it's good to play the scales at least enough so that you know all the keys without thinking about them. It's possible to overdo scales, I think, and very tempting, too. Nothing gives a warm sense of virtue like running through all the scales major and minor in all the keys everyday, but beyond a certain point there are diminishing returns, and the time would be better spent working on the specific technical problems of specific pieces. When I gave up doing Hanon and daily scales, my technique improved a good deal. However, a few years later on, I have a very good teacher, and when he works with me on how to move efficiently, the easiest place to experiment with different motions is while doing scales. The notes are now automatic, so all you have to think about are the specific movements you are trying to tweak and improve.

So scales can be helpful because

1. You learn all the major and minor keys thoroughly

2. You can use them to work on motions and hand positions in isolation without being distracted by anything more complicated than the motion itself.

Even so, moderation is good, and I think it's good to resist the temptation to spend too great a fraction of your time doing scales alone.

[coffee_guy]

I didn't want this to be an argument about scales vs no scales...

I think scales are VERY IMPORTANT, at least when I learned guitar they were.

I more wanted to know the best ways to go about practicing them. Sorry if I did not make that clear.

[brogers70]

Here's a good post about practicing scales, from Bernhard.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=9211.0

[raphaelinparis]

I think scales are VERY IMPORTANT, at least when I learned guitar they were.

I think that at the piano things are maybe less clear cut. From what I have read here, there are times in your life, when scales do boost your technique, and there are also times when scales practice has "diminishing returns" (quoting another post).
So to know what to work, when, and why, depending on your current level, is a very interesting subject.

BTW: after our discussions here, this morning I started my training by working on the scale of the piece I am working on, in case this helps very simply  : hands separated, not too fast, just to remember the fingering (as a first step).

BTW 2 : I have read Leimer's book "Piano Technique" (he was Gieseking's professor). He advises to practice scale but not too much, and he stresses that they should be practiced hands separated, because coordination of hands is not the primary purpose of scales, and practicing hands together is more time consuming for no obvious benefit. So these are Leimer's words, he was a world class teacher, do you think that he had a point ?

[nyiregyhazi]

BTW 2 : I have read Leimer's book "Piano Technique" (he was Gieseking's professor). He advises to practice scale but not too much, and he stresses that they should be practiced hands separated, because coordination of hands is not the primary purpose of scales, and practicing hands together is more time consuming for no obvious benefit. So these are Leimer's words, he was a world class teacher, do you think that he had a point ?

Makes a lot of sense. However, coordination certainly is an important purpose of scales and most people will need to work on that too, unless already very accomplished at it. One handed work is probably the most important of all though. Simply blasting through fast scales with two hands leaves little attention for the details. However, alternating between slow and fast work with a single hand is a very good way to look out for holes in the movement and ensuring continuous development of something specific. Until you've truly mastered  ability to get the small units controlled and even at any speed, there's much to be learned.

[raphaelinparis]

Until you've truly mastered  ability to get the small units controlled and even at any speed, there's much to be learned.

ok then. When do you think one needs to do the more complicated exercises like scales with 2 notes (like fifths , thirds, etc). I have a book of scales so the first exercises start with one note at a time (so I plan to do that), starting from different fingering sometimes, but then it gets more involved with chords etc. Do you recommend I go for these ones too ?

[nyiregyhazi]

ok then. When do you think one needs to do the more complicated exercises like scales with 2 notes (like fifths , thirds, etc). I have a book of scales so the first exercises start with one note at a time (so I plan to do that), starting from different fingering sometimes, but then it gets more involved with chords etc. Do you recommend I go for these ones too ?

Fifths? Are you quite sure? Anyway, do you mean scales a 3rd apart for both hands or 3rds in one hand? I'd concentrate on basic unison firstly. However, hands a 3rd and 6th apart are a great test of whether you really know the scale properly. To be honest, I could scarcely say anything much about the thing involving chords as I have no idea what these exercises are.

[raphaelinparis]

Fifths? Are you quite sure? Anyway, do you mean scales a 3rd apart for both hands or 3rds in one hand?

it is like doing scales of "2-notes chord" with one hand. old book (1st edition end of 19th century maybe)

[nyiregyhazi]

it is like doing scales of "2-notes chord" with one hand. old book (1st edition end of 19th century maybe)

Well, I wouldn't jump into those two quickly. It all depends on your quality of movement though.

[m1469]

Hi Folks,

I have been playing under a year. I am an adult learner (but played guitar most of my life). Playing grade 1&2 pieces only right now. I enjoy learning classical pieces that much teacher selects, but mainly, I want to play folk and contemporary music as my ultimate goal. Anyway that's my background, now I want to talk about scales.

How often should I practice scales? How much time % wise should I allot? Should I practice all the scales I know each day, or just focus one the scales of the pieces I am working on. Or even just focus on one scale per week or even month?

The way I am doing it now is alternating sharp and flat scale keys. For example, I will practice all my sharp scales one day and the next practice my flat scales. I just alternate each day (When I have sufficient time). I try and devote 10 minutes per scale.

I would greatly appreciate feedback... thanks.

Well, it does depend upon your goals, not just in terms of repertoire but also in terms of how well you want to understand music and the piano itself.  I couldn't tell you how long you should spend on them, other than saying "as long as it takes to reach your goals."  Do you want to know all of them?  How well?  

Personally, I want to know all of them very, very well, including all 7 "church" modes.  There are more that I will want to know after those, but those are what I want for now.  Another lifetime ago, when I was at University, for a certain period of time I took it upon myself to learn all of the regular Major and minor ones (for the first time in my life), and probably spent in those days about an hour?  I can't quite remember b/c I was doing other "technical" stuff at the time and forget how long the scales portion specifically took.  

Fast forward, I started relearning them again in about 2009, I think, but was doing mainly a selection of them and somewhat inconsistently.  Then, about a year ago, I really started devoting myself to all of them and consistently.  During that time, for about 3-4 months at least, I was spending about an hour/day doing just scales (I believe), and my goal was to really start to master them all, including modes and different forms of minor.  The past year has seen variations on how I go about them, but generally I've established a pretty good footing with them and now I practice one set everyday (a different set each day) in the circle of fifths and I spend about 15 minutes on scales alone.  That is roughly 1/18th of my practice time each day.  I am starting to have a pretty good handle on them and don't feel like I need to practice every scale every day in order just to know it.  I would practice every scale every day if that was all I cared about and were going to perform them in Carnegie Hall, for example.  My routine is different than other people's.  Also, I'm sure the people who are actually playing scales at Carnegie Hall don't need to practice every scale everyday at this point, but maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe they still want to practice every scale, everyday.  There's lots I don't know, including that.    

Hope that helps.