Thalberg Fantasy on La Traviata, op.78

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I think this is Thalberg's masterpiece virtuoso paraphrase and on the same level as Liszt, but it's very difficult to put it across as I'd like. Earl Wild was the man for these pieces, but sadly he never recorded this one. I've been working on it for some time. Here's a recent performance from a student recital - certainly not perfect, but hopefully enjoyable. Comments welcome; in particular on the sound quality. It was recorded with an Edirol R-09HR and a trial borrowed pair of Rode NT5 mics which I am considering purchasing. The piano was a 7" Yamaha with a more-or-less nonfunctional una corda pedal (ugh). Sadly Thal appears to have left the forum - it's partly for him.

[rachfan]

Hi ronde,

Thal will likely hear this, as he's definitely back.  Send him a PM.  

I liked your performance of this transcription a lot.  You played it with fine command and panache.  I really enjoyed it.

Yamaha isn't my favorite piano, but this one sounded quite good.  Because they tend to have a bright sound, many pianists overuse the soft pedal to get a darker timbre.  So the felt on the hammer faces grooves in even faster until no soft felt is left.  Then one day a pianist comes along (you in this case) who cannot get any detectable change in timbre with the pedal!  The only fix is fully voicing the piano.        

For recording piano, small-diaphragm condenser mics are tops.  Rode NT5s are also at a generally affordable price point too. I recall looking into them a few years back. I believe they come with cardioid pattern.  You might want to see if you'd prefer omnidirectional instead.  I've found that if you use standard A-B mic configuration, the sound is richer with the omni's; however, if your recording venue has extraneous noises that you don't want to enter your recordings, then cardioid capsules will better minimize it.  

David

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Yamaha isn't my favorite piano, but this one sounded quite good.  Because they tend to have a bright sound, many pianists overuse the soft pedal to get a darker timbre.  So the felt on the hammer faces grooves in even faster until no soft felt is left.  Then one day a pianist comes along (you in this case) who cannot get any detectable change in timbre with the pedal!  The only fix is fully voicing the piano.

I'm really not very keen on them, but this one was better than most. The soft pedal was a real problem, as I had not had any significant time on the piano pre-concert and was figuring on using it to cheat a little for tonal control in two passages, the octave section from c. 2.48 (where my balance isn't very good and the tenor melody is a little swamped by the fast octaves) and the trill section from c. 6.10 (where my balance is a bit better, probably because I had acclimatised somewhat to the touch). It's scant consolation that my teacher hated the pianist's balance in those places in the professional recording I brought him.

For recording piano, small-diaphragm condenser mics are tops.  Rode NT5s are also at a generally affordable price point too. I recall looking into them a few years back. I believe they come with cardioid pattern.  You might want to see if you'd prefer omnidirectional instead.  I've found that if you use standard A-B mic configuration, the sound is richer with the omni's; however, if your recording venue has extraneous noises that you don't want to enter your recordings, then cardioid capsules will better minimize it. 

As it turned out, I'm very glad the recording was done with cardioids. It was part of a student recital, during which some of us had to contend with the noise of bagpipes at a wedding in the hotel next door! It was clearly audible in the hall during p/pp passages but I've not yet spotted it on the recorded material.

I couldn't get youtube to upload properly yesterday, but having now had some success, anyone who is interested can view the performance at

[furtwaengler]

Thalberg's fantasies seem to mix a good deal of clarity and integrity with the brilliant display of pianism. It seems cleaner than what Liszt liked to do, and there's really something fresh about the whole approach. I always enjoy hearing you play these. And I must say the piano does not sound bad to these ears!

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Thalberg's fantasies seem to mix a good deal of clarity and integrity with the brilliant display of pianism. It seems cleaner than what Liszt liked to do, and there's really something fresh about the whole approach.

Interesting that you should say that.

I think his fantasies (when they are looked at at all) are often misunderstood and viewed as a sort of ersatz inferior Liszt. I'm convinced his style emanates ultimately from Mozart (albeit highly-souped up as a consequence of all the developments made to the piano in the intervening years), whereas Liszt is descended from Beethoven. Whilst I freely admit Liszt was the greater composer, I still think Liszt's and Thalberg's paraphrases should be approached differently.

[furtwaengler]

^I really like that Mozart-Beethoven comparison. It helps define what I'm thinking about this Fantasy. I know I ought to take a closer look at Thalberg's output.

[thalbergmad]

Whilst I freely admit Liszt was the greater composer, I still think Liszt's and Thalberg's paraphrases should be approached differently.

It has been said that Liszt wanted the piano to sound like the whole orchestra, but Thalberg was happy with just the strings, therefore they have to be approached differently. If one was to attempt a Thalberg Fantasy in the same way as a Liszt, the effect would be lost.

This is by far the best Thalberg recording I have heard from you and whilst Wild did not record this, I can envisage his end product not being vastly different to your own. What amazes me is how you keep the melody going and standing out clearly amongst all the chords, arpeggios and especially the trills. This is one thing I have never managed to do. It requires considerable skill, fine degrees of control and a damned good ear.

I hope you continue to play these romantic transcriptions as they are still considered to be "empty" and many pianists do not go near them. Perhaps the pros would find too many technical deficiencies in their playing that they would rather not expose.

Well done.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

What amazes me is how you keep the melody going and standing out clearly amongst all the chords, arpeggios and especially the trills.

The trills are the hardest. It's difficult to keep them quiet, and the una corda pedal had little effect on this particular piano, which was tiresome as I was planning to use it to help out!

I hope you continue to play these romantic transcriptions as they are still considered to be "empty" and many pianists do not go near them. Perhaps the pros would find too many technical deficiencies in their playing that they would rather not expose.

Plenty good transcriptions still left to play! I don't understand why they should be considered empty; if they are fine music before they pass into a piano version they should still be fine music afterwards as long as the arrangement is done well. I'm glad to say that there are a few pros around willing to diversify into such repertoire: in case you're not aware of it, there is some very fine Thalberg on youtube by Giovanni Bellucci.

[flyinfingers]

I love this type of music that I have just been introduced to.  I hope to play this one day.  That was beautiful!

[goldentone]

Ronde, how did you manage to utilize the pair of Rode NT5 mics on the Edirol R-09 HR (which I also own) since it has only one mic input?  They sound very good, of noticeably much higher quality, for example, than your Isolde's Liebestod recording.

I'm enjoying this very much.  Your playing is elevating, and elevates the soul of the listener.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I love this type of music that I have just been introduced to.  I hope to play this one day.  That was beautiful!

Thanks. There is a vast treasure trove of such pieces, but unfortunately they don't get played very frequently.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Ronde, how did you manage to utilize the pair of Rode NT5 mics on the Edirol R-09 HR (which I also own) since it has only one mic input?  They sound very good, of noticeably much higher quality, for example, than your Isolde's Liebestod recording.

I'm enjoying this very much.  Your playing is elevating, and elevates the soul of the listener.

Ah, I'm glad you drew my attention to that apparent anomaly, as it hadn't crossed my mind to think about it! I wasn't primarily responsible for setting up the recording equipment, but what I do remember is that the recording was done both with the Edirol and on digital audio tape: the Rode mics were connected to a mixing desk and the mixing desk to the Edirol and DAT.

I'm very partial to this paraphrase. I think it has an interesting combination of wistful intimacy and virtuoso flamboyance - perhaps a higher level of the first than is usual for such pieces.

[scottmcc]

I only got a chance to listen to the first half as I was running out the door today, but it definitely brightened my morning!  Thank you for presenting this very interesting and unknown (at least to me) little gem.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I only got a chance to listen to the first half as I was running out the door today, but it definitely brightened my morning!  Thank you for presenting this very interesting and unknown (at least to me) little gem.

I suspect it will be unknown to the vast majority of people! Thanks for listening.

[scottmcc]

I should add that I just listened to the whole thing, and was duly impressed.  The trills are definitely a doozy, and I could hear a few moments where the struggle was apparent, but overall I thought this was an absolutely great performance.  I wish I could have been there live.  Thanks again for posting it.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I should add that I just listened to the whole thing, and was duly impressed.  The trills are definitely a doozy, and I could hear a few moments where the struggle was apparent, but overall I thought this was an absolutely great performance.

There's one particularly nasty passage in r.h. sixths. These things are ok in isolation, but once you add trying to keep the melody (which is shared between the hands) in the foreground and the ornamentation in the background, the difficulty is immediately doubled. I could settle for 'notes only' but don't believe in that sort of compromise - if voices should be brought out in Bach and Beethoven, then they should be brought out in the 'lesser masters' also. The coda could be cleaner, but I'm probably pushing the tempo here (adrenalin) and I'll have to live with it - at least the practice runthrough I put on youtube shows I can hit (almost) all the notes! I'm quite pleased with the trills, as the (rather tricky) left hand comes across clearly and isn't swamped by them.

[scottmcc]

I agree with you, and I would even add that to my ears voicing is even more important in transcriptions where you are emulating the sounds of multiple instruments.  I thought the double note passages were very well done, and I was unaware how much the melody was split between the hands although it certainly is a hallmark of thalberg's writing to do so.

Anyway, great job, again.   

[pianoplayjl]

It was wonderful! voicing, the touch, expression, everything. so soft. I like the runny arpeggios in the middle. Such a soft, yet musically outstanding piece neglected by most pianists, if not all. Like Thal said, post more rare transcriptions.

Now I'm really thalberg mad....

[ronde_des_sylphes]

It was wonderful! voicing, the touch, expression, everything. so soft. I like the runny arpeggios in the middle. Such a soft, yet musically outstanding piece neglected by most pianists, if not all. Like Thal said, post more rare transcriptions.

Now I'm really thalberg mad....

Thanks. There are a few of my Thalberg recordings in the audition room; https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=38364.0 (Casta diva) is probably my favourite.

You might enjoy this:

Now that really is piano playing! Sadly the recording is truncated.

[remy]

Thank you so much for posting your beautiful performance of this virtuosic piece, ronde_des_sylphes. How can anyone listen to those wonderful harmonies on the first page and not immediately fall in love?

I know most people consider Thalberg's best opera fantasy to be Moise, but for me, this Traviata is by far my favorite. Just listen to the compelling beauty of "Addio Del Passato" accompanied by those pianissimo trills way up high.

I once heard Monserrat Caballé sing Traviata at the Met. In the last act, Violetta is standing center stage, dressed in a white gown and holding a white camellia. The stage is almost completely dark, except for a brilliant white spotlight on her. She sings "Addio Del Passato", and at the end, as she holds that pianissimo unaccompanied high A, she gradually lets the petals of the camellia float down to the floor in that very bright white spotlight. Combined with her exquisite singing, it was a stunning effect. That's what I thought of as I listened to you play.

Thanks again.

remy

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I know most people consider Thalberg's best opera fantasy to be Moise, but for me, this Traviata is by far my favorite.

Moise is probably the best known - it was the first I learnt - but I think the first half is a bit rambling (though the second half variations on Moses' prayer are very ingenious). I think this and his fantasy on La Sonnambula are the best of his extensive output.

There are a few rough patches in the performance: I must say that I seriously underestimated the difficulty of the piece and it's harder in practice than it looks on the score. I'm glad you enjoyed my playing of this rare piece: the Addio Del Passato is very beautifully arranged by Thalberg, imo.

Thanks for listening and commenting.