Reaching those opening Rach 2 chords?

[werq34ac]

Some people think they sound awful rolled, and most pianists play them blocked if they can. However, it's interesting to note that Rachmaninoff himself sort of rolled them, even though he obviously had hands large enough to block them. He plays the F and then the 3 other notes. He does play the first and the last chord blocked.

Opinions? suggestions? Personally, I can reach the first chord (FCAb), and the one in the middle (FCEbA)

Here's Rach playing

[retrouvailles]

I can personally reach them. If you can't reach them, I would not suggest rolling them. I would do what you basically said that Rachmaninoff does. I once heard a recording, I think it was Ashkenazy, where he did basically what Rachmaninoff did. I am sure that Rachmaninoff knew that this was going to cause problems. However, if you can reach them, play them as block chords. If not, use your nose.

[bluthner]

Now that would be a novel solution. Barry Douglas only nosed the low Fs.

[werq34ac]

What about the FCEbA chord that I can reach? Should I play that blocked? (I can't block any of the others besides the first one)

[scott13]

Ashkenarzy has very small hands compared to Rachmaninoff, and in fact, on the recording i have, he actually rolls all of them and they sound far more beautiful than blocks of sound.

[nyiregyhazi]

Ashkenarzy has very small hands compared to Rachmaninoff, and in fact, on the recording i have, he actually rolls all of them and they sound far more beautiful than blocks of sound.

Are you kidding? Cliched as it is, has there ever been a more obvious depiction of bells? To roll the chords is just horrible- and there's no hand that cannot break them as Rachmaninoff did.

[stephenv]

Has anyone ever heard the term "psycho-accoustics?"   (now ive left the door open for  some pretty nifty jokes) 

I think it all depends on where the instrument is located....is it in a recording studio? a concert hall, small music room etc. etc.  This is the challenge for anyone playing an "accoustical" instrument.  Using your ear to determine what effect, and how to modify what you're doing to achieve what is artistically appropriate and MUSICAL...in that specific environment.  (Of course all of this depends on what you determine the composer's intent to be.) If you can pul it off MUSICALLY then I'd say your safe to perform the piece in public.   If not..well some pieces are just not within our reach.

You might be able to "break" a chord that is too large for your hand..and create the psycho-accoustical "illusion" that it's played solidly!  That effect is DEFINITELY possible in SOME environments...NOT all!  May sound HORRIBLY un-musical in one environment as opposed to another.

Disagree?  Agree? Indifferent?? 

[nyiregyhazi]

Has anyone ever heard the term "psycho-accoustics?"   (now ive left the door open for  some pretty nifty jokes)  

I think it all depends on where the instrument is located....is it in a recording studio? a concert hall, small music room etc. etc.  This is the challenge for anyone playing an "accoustical" instrument.  Using your ear to determine what effect, and how to modify what you're doing to achieve what is artistically appropriate and MUSICAL...in that specific environment.  (Of course all of this depends on what you determine the composer's intent to be.) If you can pul it off MUSICALLY then I'd say your safe to perform the piece in public.   If not..well some pieces are just not within our reach.

You might be able to "break" a chord that is too large for your hand..and create the psycho-accoustical "illusion" that it's played solidly!  That effect is DEFINITELY possible in SOME environments...NOT all!  May sound HORRIBLY un-musical in one environment as opposed to another.

Disagree?  Agree? Indifferent??  

If you play the bass note lightly and then the chord solidly, it will sound fine in any enviroment. If have a big spread, it will either create an audible surge, or leave the texture sounding thin in the left hand (due to the lightness needed to avoid the surge). Acoustics make some difference, but the only way to get real focus is to use the bass as a grace note rather than spread.

[werq34ac]

Thank you for your comments, i will take these into consideration. Personally, I play "bells" a lot differently from what I'm doing now, but I'm not sure I like it that way. I feel bells has sort of a pingy sound and of course the opening chords would sound awful if they were pingy.


Another question, speed of these chords? Should we play them adagio like everyone else does? Or play them the same speed as when the runs start? If you look at the score, there is no indication to play the runs faster than the opening chords. Rachmaninoff himself plays the chords fairly fast, but when he starts the runs, he gets even faster. Most pianists I think play the chords very slowly and start a completely new tempo after the 4 quarter notes.

[scott13]

Are you kidding? Cliched as it is, has there ever been a more obvious depiction of bells? To roll the chords is just horrible- and there's no hand that cannot break them as Rachmaninoff did.

Not kidding at all, i believe a bell sound can be achieved with the right amount of pedal and a delicate roll. Take the opening of La Campanella (excuse spelling). Now Liszt noted in a letter that this opening was meant to mimic the sound of church bells, and the RH is a tremolo with slight pedal, and in my opinion the effect if perfectly created.

I don't see why this cannot apply to Rach 2, especially if your hands are not big enough to block the chords, as the only other alternative to rolling would be to omit notes, which is much more of a musical disgrace than rolling a large chord.

[nyiregyhazi]

Not kidding at all, i believe a bell sound can be achieved with the right amount of pedal and a delicate roll. Take the opening of La Campanella (excuse spelling). Now Liszt noted in a letter that this opening was meant to mimic the sound of church bells, and the RH is a tremolo with slight pedal, and in my opinion the effect if perfectly created.

I don't see why this cannot apply to Rach 2, especially if your hands are not big enough to block the chords, as the only other alternative to rolling would be to omit notes, which is much more of a musical disgrace than rolling a large chord.

Campanella is a little bell. Spreading into an individual melodic tone played with a bell like quality is fine. The problem with those chords is there is no individual melodic tone. The whole chords sounds in the fashion of a very deep tolling bell. If you start spreading that, either you get a very messy surge that takes away all the focus or you get a very thin left hand in a bid to avoid that.

Omitting notes is totally unnecessary. Listen to what Rachmaninoff does. Any hand can span the chords, when the low note is a grace note.

[werq34ac]

Ah now that makes more sense, large tolling bells. thank you.

Still confused on the tempo of the chords.. I should have asked my teacher at my lesson..