Metronomes are Evil

[starlady]

Now that I've got your attention:

For every new piece, after I have learned the notes and fingering, comes the dread words from my teacher: "the tempo is unstable" or "you're rushing again! practise with the metronome!".  And it's just awful. When the metronome is clicking I miss the notes, loose the fingering, get terribly upset, throw a book at the cat, take to drink, cry,    , etc.  It not just that the noise distracts me,  I feel almost like the metronome noise is hitting me repeatedly.  I find myself cringing at each beat. 

I'm sure most of you do not have this abusive relationship with your metronomes.  How do I get on top of this so I can use the damn thing?

-s. 

[drkilroy]

In my opinion, just try with metronome set slower and gradually increase the tempo. Make sure that you know every note well because if you will hesitate, the tempo will be messed up.

When you practise with metronome play in such speed, so you will not hesitate.

Best regards, Dr

[stephenv]

I know re: metronomes...they are a necessary evil.   

Id suggest taking ONE scale that you like to play..feels comfortable etc. Using both hands in paralell motion..set the metronome to around 60..and play the scale two octaves to get the feeling of using it.  Say 4/4   You can also play around with the metronome and set it so that each note of the scale gets one click, at the tempo you want. 

 I believe that using the metronome for the first few measures of a piece..is enuf to get the general feeling for tempo.   Using it all the way thru can be a problem.  After all..are you going to use the metronome when the time comes to perform the piece???.  NOT

An alternative to the metronome...is using your body...TAP the basic beat with your foot and CLAP the note values with your hands...like patting your head and rubbing your stomach..However its a neat way of GETTING the FEELING and its YOU doing it ..NOT the metronome.   Not sure if your teacher knows of this way ..it seems so elementary...yet it can be extremely helpful. 


hope some of this is helpful. 

[ionian_tinnear]

Metronomes are not nearly as evil as Urbanomes nor Garden Gnomes..

[lelle]

Metronomes are not nearly as evil as Urbanomes nor Garden Gnomes..

I see what you did there 

[nataliethepianist]

I find them like heaven in a piece of plastic! I am horrible at counting and keeping time, so they help so much!

[jaggens]

Hi Starlady,

Some things I have discovered with my students:

You have two ways to use the metronome.
1) You can try to react to the sound of the metronome just like simulating it and try to hold the rhythm according to the metronome. This does not work and takes you far from your real self. Why? Because you listen to every beat of the metronome and then react to this and this creates a lagging effect and the disturbing chain reaction activates.

2) Feel the metronome beat in yourself. Try to get the rhythm flow into your own body and feelings. If this happenes the metronome only helps to hold and strengthen your inner sense of rhythm. This way metronome can even be your friend.

Some exercises to do this.

a) Let the metronome beat for a while and listen to the same rhythm in your head. Turn the metronome on mute and keep listening in your head. Turn the metronome on again in a while and notice, are you still synchronized with metronome?

b) Dance and do all kind on different things in the rhythm of the metronome and feel how you are in one flow with the metronome and this is not harrassing you.

Of course if you are practising real pieces, do not take too high tempos.

Be yourself and have a dialogue with the little monster, metronome

GL
Jaak

[ethure]

When the metronome is clicking I miss the notes, loose the fingering, get terribly upset, throw a book at the cat, take to drink, cry,    , etc. 

drink is okay, but the cat is innocent! 

[raphaelinparis]

Now that I've got your attention:

For every new piece, after I have learned the notes and fingering, comes the dread words from my teacher: "the tempo is unstable" or "you're rushing again! practise with the metronome!".

Hi, my two cents (of EUR) to this conversation (yeah, we still have EUR for a couple of months here in France).
I hate metronome just as much as you, so I bought an electronic one than makes less noise (the old-style mechanical metronome...I just can't stand the sound of it). But your main goal should be to get rid of the need of using the metronome, the beat must come from you, not from the machine (and you have been given good advises on how to achieve this so I don't need to comment).
From what you write, it looks like you learn the note first, THEN comes the time when you worry about rythm. You should try to learn both at the same time (by slowing down the tempo). the problem with learning the notes first, and the rythm after, is that you memorise lots a "false" rythms that become very difficult to correct. So you can try to slow down and get the notes AND the rythm at the same time (count in your head)...

[arctic_mama]

I find using metronomes to spot check, but not play to.  I do what a previous poster suggested - listen to the tempo and really get it in your body, then play to it and be mindful of even beats and keeping the natural sway and rhythm in your arms and fingers. Then you can turn on the metronome at the end of the piece and review - see if your playing at the end matched the tempo you set in the beginning.  If it does, bravo!  You don't 'need' the metronome as more than an occasional tool.  If you find yourself still rushing the rhythm in the middle or off your beat by the end, it would behoove youth make more liberal use of it during your play-throughs.

It throws off my playing to use one during my piece at any significant tempo, but I am fortunate to have very solid natural syncopation and occasional metronome checks to get the right initial tempo is all I need.  Your mileage may vary depending on your specifics skills and playing strengths and weaknesses.

[mcdiddy1]

Brahms once said " the meteronome has no value....for I myself have never believed that my blood and a mechanical instrument go well together

I think its good to see you have some things in common with the master composer.  Of course if your having trouble playing like Brahms then you need some way to play with good rhythm.  It is more important how you use the metronome in your practice . You want to feel the hidden or silent felt pulse on different levels in your playing if you want to play accurately. If you feel the subdivisions of the pulse then you can understand that correctly feeling the space between the notes will make you more accurate and is actually fun to play with. For example taking a piece at MM=60 and changing it to 120 to feel the subdivision or slowing the entire piece to feel the sixteenth notes can be fun you just need to be shown how to do it. Ultimately the pulse should be felt in your heart not heard by yours ears.

[starlady]

drink is okay, but the cat is innocent! 

You don't know this cat.  She is wanted by the police of three continents. --s.

[stephenv]

this is going to be offensive to some:

I have observed that sometimes in performing a piece in which the composer uses trills and candenza like ornamental passages like in Chopin-- we have to attempt to play like a MACHINE.

You know a perfect, even trill....a machine can do it with ease...we humans have to struggle and work to make our fingers do that...especially 4th/5th when your holding onto other notes with the other digits!!!     Those rippling..exquistely even ornanments in Chopin...a machine could do them so much easier than we.   

HOWEVER..after the ornament/trill/etc is complete...IF a machine continued with the rest of the Nocturne, Fugue, whatever...it would be an utterly boring piece...SO...we have to return to humanness after performing that small segment in Machine Mode!

Obviously I have too much time on my hands...I should return to practice...

[bringdowntherain]

Try using a metronome that can give you different voices (or a progam that will let you use samples for the click).  Sometimes I like to change up the sounds just so I don't have that crazy click in my head. I'll use non percussive sounds, like a combination of farm animals.  Makes my day a little more interesting and gives my ears a little bit of a change.

[kellyc]

A lot of problems with metronomes can be fixed by playing with others.  Piano players seem to have a particular problem keeping tempo because they just don't spend enough time in a group setting.  Doesn't matter if its 4 handed piano, or a piano quartet or playing with an orchestra or even a singer.  The more you play with others the easier using a metronome gets and the less you actually need to use it, except maybe to help you set the opening tempo to get a feel for a piece. It also helps after ritards, or rubato, or accelerandos to get back to  "A Tempo".

When I was younger my teacher had us do a great deal of group playing in her studio. It helped me a lot, so maybe it will help you also.

Kelly

[robertinventor]

Hi everyone, there's a reason why it's distracting to play with a metronome, and if you address that you can deal with most of the issues. It's an established technique, which I came across hwile researching into the "Bounce Metronome" software which i wrote - but not well known at all. In fact just now am planning to do a youtube video about it.

What you have to do is to play in the pocket, bury the beat. The thing that's distracting about a metronome is that when you are exactly in time you can't hear the beat - especially with a loud instrument like piano, when you get really exactly on the beat of the metronome to the same millisecond, the metronome literally stops sounding, you don't hear it any more. Listen carefully and you can hear the metronome click mixed in as part of your piano sound of the note.

So - when you don't realise that, and don't give it much attention - then you are automatically pushed away from the beat whenever you play with a metronome. You play a few milliseconds ahead or behind the beat. It wouldn't be so bad if you played consistently ahead of the beat or consistently behind. But most people play randomly some notes ahead of the beat and some behind - very close but a few milliseconds out. That's not going to help your timing for sure!

So - the secret is to learn to play in the pocket and also deliberately behind or ahead of the beat as well. But it's very hard to do that because - if you can't hear the metronome at all - or only rather indistinctly - when you play in the pocket - how can you keep it up for more than a few notes?

That's where my program Bounce Metronome comes in. The Bounce effect shows you where to play visually, and it's possible using it to play in the pocket consistently for as long as you like. Once you get the idea you can also do it with a conventional metronome (because you do still hear it even when in the pocket, it might sound much quieter, even close to inaudible perhaps when the two sounds merge exactly in time - but you can still hear it enough for a reference, once used to the feeling of it), but it's harder to do without the visual cues.

Here it is bouncing in a conducting pattern - uses the conducting pattern because it is easier to follow out of the corner of your eye, been developed by conductors to be easy for performers to follow. So not trying to copy a conductor's baton motion exactly, just using the pattern because it is a good one to follow

It helps to use a drum stick (or anything else with a natural bounce action to it) and hit something with a percussive short sound e.g. a pebble - and see if you can bury the beat exactly like that, so exactly that the sound of the metronome click vanishes or merges..

So that's something you can do from time to time when you practise and especially when you are first getting the hang of playing "in the pocket" and burying the metronome click.

However even with the visual cue, and even using a drum stick with a natural bonce action, it's still hard to do - so that takes us to the standard technique for practising how to bury the metronome click.

What you do is to play first ahead of the beat. Play well ahead, to start with simple things like scale passages, and just play every note well ahead of the metronome click. Then play behind the click. Then get as close as you can to either side. Finally you go right in the middle between those two points and that's where you bury the click.

You know you got it if the sound of the metronome vanishes - or if there is a "sweet spot" where the sound merges - or you may feel that the metronome is playing the notes and that you are doing the clicks - there is no way to know whether the sounds were produced by you or by the metronome because they are so exactly in sync. with each other.

Then once you get it, and can play in the pocket whenever you want to - no need to always play in the pocket every time you play with the metronome. You can also try playing ahead of the beat consistently e.g. with scale passages or even (much harder) throughout one of your pieces. Then play behind as well, as musicians often do play ahead or behind the beat. Or indeed play individual notes ahead or behind the beat e.g. every time you play the third beat in 4/4 try playing your note a few milliseconds ahead of the beat, with the rest of the beats in the pocket. Etc. can make up your own exercises.

Another feature of Bounce is the option to set it to go silent for a number of measures, and then come back on again automatically. That's a really good exercise to do with playing in the pocket - play to bury the click - and then when it goes silent keep playing - when it comes back on again after the break - are you still exactly in the pocket? If you have a good sense of internal tempo you can do that - and then can try with longer and longer pauses - can you be in the pocket still after a silence of say four measures of 4/4, or 8 measures, or 16 measures?

Here is a video play of 4/4 with the metronome going silent so you can try out and see if you remain in the pocket when it comes back again after the silences:

Play list of many other go silent briefly videos here, gets increasingly more challenging with e.g. rhythm phasing and polyrhythms to try in the same way: Go Silent Briefly Play LIst

Anyway - so I'd say - nothing evil about a metronome - it is just a way of indicating time and helping you to have a good timing reference if you need that to help internalise it - as most musicians do. The thing is how you use it - if you use it well then it can help a lot. This practise playing in the pocket doesn't make your timing more mechanical - the opposite - it makes it more flexible, you can put any note you like anywhere in the measure, and can play steady or rubato, just makes your playing more precise when you want it to be. What you do with that extra precision depends on your musicianship . And you can do things to compensate for all the possible disadvantages of a metronome - I've done a page here about ways to do that, with particular ways to deal with each of the various potential disadvantages of metronome use:

Metronome Advantages and Disadvantages

The website also has links to some of the other material available about metronome technique. Not so easy to find but there is actually a fair amount out there, but tends to be low in the search results.

So anyway am going to do a youtube video about all this too, just did a try out of it today, went quite well but didn't actually film it, was just trying out the ideas to see how it feels, will have another go and upload it. There are a few other things I could say.

It's all just ideas to try out. As a musician I'm an amateur recorder player, play keyboard a bit, and compose a bit short microtonal pieces normally. So - not a teacher - but found out so much of this material while researching into Bounce and there is so little about it on the internet - one gets the impression most musicians just pick up a metronome and expect to be able to play with it right away and don't realise there is a whole technique to learning how to play with a metronome - just like everything else - and that if you get the technique right it makes a huge difference to your metronome practise sessions..

[werq34ac]

this is going to be offensive to some:

I have observed that sometimes in performing a piece in which the composer uses trills and candenza like ornamental passages like in Chopin-- we have to attempt to play like a MACHINE.

You know a perfect, even trill....a machine can do it with ease...we humans have to struggle and work to make our fingers do that...especially 4th/5th when your holding onto other notes with the other digits!!!     Those rippling..exquistely even ornanments in Chopin...a machine could do them so much easier than we.   

HOWEVER..after the ornament/trill/etc is complete...IF a machine continued with the rest of the Nocturne, Fugue, whatever...it would be an utterly boring piece...SO...we have to return to humanness after performing that small segment in Machine Mode!

Obviously I have too much time on my hands...I should return to practice...

You're reasoning is understandable, but it is wrong. You are saying that trills ornaments and cadenza like passages should be played like a machine? A machine may get the notes more easily, but a machine cannot have soul. Trills and ornaments and cadenzas should be seen as musical gestures, not technical problems. And why not take a little time on these cadenzas?


As for the original post, the metronome never lies. And yet the metronome is seldom right. What I mean is, the metronome will always be steady (unless it's broken). It beats relentlessly the exact beat. However, beats aren't always exact. Music may have mathematics involved, but the soul can't be measured in numbers. The metronome cannot tell you how to play a piece.

That isn't to say it isn't a useful tool. The metronome tells us many things. For once thing, it tells us if we're rushing.  No rushing allowed (accelerando and rushing are different things. The difference is that accelerandos are purposeful). Another thing is, it tells us where we might be inadvertently taking too much time on a certain passage due to technical issues. That tells us to work the passage until technique no longer gets in the way of the music. And finally, it tells us where the metronome is wrong. While playing with the metronome, you may notice that some places seem to be too rushed or matter of fact. It tells us where we can take a little more time.

Another thing is that the metronome is good for graduation. It's much easier to get gradually faster with the metronome rather than on your own. Although this kind of practice, you can shut the metronome off after you get ahold of the pulse (but I don't recommend it until you can play with the metronome)

Ah, almost forgot, steven said that for real pieces, you can turn off the metronome. But then how will you know you are rushing or playing unsteadily?

[outin]

Ah, almost forgot, steven said that for real pieces, you can turn off the metronome. But then how will you know you are rushing or playing unsteadily?

You listen and to make sure you record yourself...

[werq34ac]

You listen and to make sure you record yourself...

That takes twice as much time. Why not just do it in one go with the metronome?

[j_menz]

That takes twice as much time. Why not just do it in one go with the metronome?

Because you may be relying on the metronome for your steadiness, rather than developing and using your own sense of pace and rhythm.

[outin]

That takes twice as much time. Why not just do it in one go with the metronome?

Because you would do that anyway for other things?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I don't know how helpful this advice is, but my teacher told me to never use the metronome.  Rhythm, tempo, and phrasing should be all in the head.

[outin]

I don't know how helpful this advice is, but my teacher told me to never use the metronome.  Rhythm, tempo, and phrasing should be all in the head.

Same here except for checking the tempo. But I sometimes use it to force myself play scales slower. I tend to rush when bored...

[j_menz]

I don't know how helpful this advice is, but my teacher told me to never use the metronome.  Rhythm, tempo, and phrasing should be all in the head.

It's excellent advice.  Note the use of the word "rhythm". It is the sense of this that will serve you well.

I have heard more than enough pianists play who had a great sense of "timing", which is something you can get from a metronome, but no sense of rhythm at all.

If you get the rhythm right, the timing takes care of itself.

[johnmar78]

starlady, this is my 2 cents.

I use meteronome to stablelize my tempo as a learning curve, use it when you can play ALL NOTES slowly if not fluently. If you find its distracting at the begining, as said by others, set at a slower tempo, but try to clap on the beat first and get that pulse going in your head. Normally, if you can clap in time(with your hands) with metronome, you are on the right track. 

After, a period of metronome drill, YOU MUST turn it off and try play with your internal beat. At this stage, you shoud already mastered all the technical work of the pieces and mainly focus on your musicality. I hope this helps.....

[robertinventor]

I totally agree that you need to internalize your sense of rhythm, and that musicality isn't about playing metronomically exact timing.

But when you decide you do need to practise with a metronome, then you need to use metronomically exact timing some of the time -that's the whole reason for practising with a metronome at all. It doesn't seem to make your timing more mechanical, just makes it more flexible, if you approach it right. Your aim is to have the flexibility to play any note anywhere you like in the beat and to vary the beat itself with the utmost flexibility, whenever you want to, not restricted in any way by technique or ability.

So many people when the practise with a metronome are only approximately in time with the clicks, they are just all over the place. There are many youtube videos by musicians showing you how to play with a metronome and most of them aren't in time with the clicks, every note is at least say 10 or 20 milliseconds ahead or behind the beat often in a random way and often much more than that more like 50 milliseconds out isn't unusual. When you do that, then obviously you aren't going to learn all that much about exact timing of your notes from your metronome sessions, and it might even make your sense of timing and rhythm worse.

I found only one video of someone actually playing "in the pocket" with a metronome - and that was a drummer. Even most percussionists don't play in the pocket when they play with a metronome - even when doing a demo video to show other percussionists how to play with a metronome.

Maybe you don't need a metronome. I certainly wouldn't want to say that all musicians need a metronome .

For instance where I live there is a local tradition of Scottish dance music, fiddle etc - and most players don't use a metronome yet have a wonderful sense of rhythm. They just get their natural sense of rhythm from lots of playing with other musicians in the genre.

But if you do need one then I'm sure it must be a good thing when you do play with it - at least some of the time - to play exactly in time with the metronome clicks.

The technique for learning to play exactly in time with a metronome is to play as close to the click as you can to either side - then the moment where you bury the click is half way between those two points.

You can tell when you are in time, because with a loud instrument like piano when you are so exactly on the beat that the click and your note are played exactly in the same millisecond, the metronome seems to stop beating, or go very quiet, you hardly hear it because it is so merged with the sound of the piano. If not sure what I'm talking about - you'll easily notice it when it happens, it is very obvious.

So - you can start at a slow tempo say 60 bpm or less, just play a scale passage, and bury the beat for every click. That then gives you the ability to play at a steady tempo if you want to. It also keeps your timing "honest" when practising technical passages, you can't fudge the timing if you have a metronome clicking away and you bury the click - though if the metronome is clicking away and you only play approximately in time you won't notice if you fudge the passage.

Also try playing ahead or behind the beat - and some notes ahead and some behind - this time in an intentional way not because you are unaware of what you are doing. Or indeed play musically along with the metronome and listen and hear which of your notes are ahead or behind the click. That helps make sure that while refining your timing you still keep your sense of flexibility as well.

Of course the aim isn't to make every note exactly the same duration in actual performance especially e.g. of romantic piano music, or to get rid of rubato or subtle changes of tempo. You can also practise with gradual tempo changes as well, it is hard to do a slow gradual tempo change maybe some can do it naturally but many musicians have to work on it, so a metronome able to do those changes can help there too.

So in short, I think most of the issues people have playing with a metronome aren't the fault of the metronome, but are just because they have never learnt, maybe never been taught, any technique for playing with a metronome. Particularly few musicians seem to be aware of the technique of burying the click which is the foundation technique for practising with a metronome. It almost never gets mentioned e.g. in forum discussions like this or "how to use a metronome" technique pages and videos, just a few specialist pages discuss it, if you know where to look for them.

If you do use a metronome, I think it makes sense to spend some time working on metronome technique, not just set it going and play along with it - maybe a bit of metronome technique every day even - burying the click is something you can refine continually for instance. That's what I do anyway, spend a bit of time each session working on burying the click and other metronome technique issues, just a few minutes even seconds of that is enough to key you in.

[danhuyle]

Depending on how you use the metronome, I do consider it a double edged sword unless you what you're doing.

I use the metronome to
- stabilize the rhythm
- practice passages that are frail

Half the time, I can't even tell if I'm with the metronome unless another pianist sees it.

you want to develop that sense of rhythm and fully internalize it. If you can do that and use rubato in your playing, that's a priceless skill.

I used to be over reliant on the metronome like a marionette. No metronome, it's like the marionette being cut and unable to get back up.

[werq34ac]

Because you would do that anyway for other things?

Okay fine, agreed. But, after you find out your rushing, what then? Do you simply just play slower? The thing about the metronome is that it never lies (unless it's broken). It will tell you where you are rushing, where you are inadvertently slowing down, and where the metronome is wrong (not lying, but wrong. Since music isn't a machine).

I don't know how helpful this advice is, but my teacher told me to never use the metronome.  Rhythm, tempo, and phrasing should be all in the head.

I disagree. It's evil, yes but never to use it? I'm not advocating hardcore metronome practice. Just to consider it a tool in our practice. Yes Rhythm, tempo, and phrasing should all be in the head, but why not put it against the metronome to see what happens? It's not about correcting. It's about awareness, and half the time, awareness is all it takes to fix something. The problem is when students become dependent on the metronome to play steadily. They haven't internalized the pulse yet so when they take the metronome off, they still play unsteadily.

[outin]

Okay fine, agreed. But, after you find out your rushing, what then?

To be honest I don't see any problem here. If I rush or slow down it is either because I was sloppy (in easy passages) or haven't learned the passage well enough (for difficult ones). Both are easy to correct without a metronome. I guess it is difficult for me to imagine not having a steady natural pulse in my head. But I would still think it is more useful to use tapping/counting exercises to develope this inner pulse than playing with a metronome? Then again I am not a teacher so I may be wrong  

A bit off topic, but I just realized that my language is better for counting than english. Our numerals from 1-6 are all two syllable words, so they can be used to steadily count quater notes and eight notes very easily In general I think our language has a different rhytm than many others... I wonder if language can make things easier/harder for beginners at piano?

[hfmadopter]

To be honest I don't see any problem here. If I rush or slow down it is either because I was sloppy (in easy passages) or haven't learned the passage well enough (for difficult ones). Both are easy to correct without a metronome. I guess it is difficult for me to imagine not having a steady natural pulse in my head. But I would still think it is more useful to use tapping/counting exercises to develope this inner pulse than playing with a metronome? Then again I am not a teacher so I may be wrong 

Counting comes from with in, in the long run it's a far better tool than an external metronome, IMO. Metronomes are good for catching the initial speed, again , IMO. I don't even know where mine is anymore, it was rarely used even back in my hay day of learning piano ! I just think I had a wonderful teacher and I follow today so many habits she taught me. One was very little use of a metronome.

[werq34ac]

To be honest I don't see any problem here. If I rush or slow down it is either because I was sloppy (in easy passages) or haven't learned the passage well enough (for difficult ones). Both are easy to correct without a metronome. I guess it is difficult for me to imagine not having a steady natural pulse in my head. But I would still think it is more useful to use tapping/counting exercises to develope this inner pulse than playing with a metronome? Then again I am not a teacher so I may be wrong  

A bit off topic, but I just realized that my language is better for counting than english. Our numerals from 1-6 are all two syllable words, so they can be used to steadily count quater notes and eight notes very easily In general I think our language has a different rhytm than many others... I wonder if language can make things easier/harder for beginners at piano?

So you never rush? Well someone's a goody goody (I have rushing issues. Not serious ones, but occasionally a metronome does help. )

[outin]

So you never rush?

Did I say that? Yes I do rush, when something is easy/boring I just want to get it over soon so that I can concentrate on the more difficult parts (that's what I meant by sloppy).

[robertinventor]

Oh if you find a particular passage tricky, it's best to focus on just that passage, rather than play through the whole piece - and then when playing the whole piece focus more on musical expression etc than technique particularly - if you notice technical issues keep going through them and just take a note to return to them later on - then the easy pieces aren't boring at that point.

So - you play through a piece and maybe find you stumble on measures 23 and 57 say - well then you practise just those measures in isolation, with a few notes before and after to give them context. It's a waste of your time to play through the entire piece every time when you are working on the technically difficult passages, means that most of your session is spent just playing things you can already do easily which of course is boring and a waste of your time.

Then when playing through the whole piece, your focus is less on technical aspects and more on the musical expression and interpretation and things like that and also getting relaxed, able to play it easily and naturally - and enjoy it relaxed and smiliing not frowning with concentration is the kind of space you might be in - and if you stumble at a tricky passage, just take a note of it and keep going and then go back to work on it next time you work on technique. Then the slow parts are never boring, because you play them with musical expression, enjoying them, and working on interpretation.

The metronome in that work flow is most useful for the work on the technical passages as it helps you to be "honest" - especially if you play in the pocket  it is so easy to stretch the timing e.g. play the trickiest passages so that they take just a few milliseconds longer than they should if exactly in time with the rest of the measure.

If you bury the click exactly, then you notice if your notes are even just a few milliseconds early or late at the next metronome click - while if you don't do that you don't notice even if you are 10 or 20 or maybe even 40 milliseconds early or late on the metronome click and you won't even notice because none of your notes are exactly in time with it anyway.

I'm not a music teacher BTW, just an amateur musician but had to do a lot of research into metronome technique in order to develop Bounce - you can't write a good software metronome without a thorough understanding of the details of metronome technique (not necessarily good at it, just understand how it works). So that's where I'm coming from, as I understand it that's the way one is normally recommended to deal with technical passages.

Did I say that? Yes I do rush, when something is easy/boring I just want to get it over soon so that I can concentrate on the more difficult parts (that's what I meant by sloppy).

[werq34ac]

Did I say that? Yes I do rush, when something is easy/boring I just want to get it over soon so that I can concentrate on the more difficult parts (that's what I meant by sloppy).

Ah but what if you don't realize you are rushing? Wouldn't a metronome be useful?

[outin]

Ah but what if you don't realize you are rushing? Wouldn't a metronome be useful?

Hmmm... I am either a complete idiot or I just know whether I am in time or not...I don't feel I need the metronome because I instantly know when I am off pulse. It happens all the time because I don't always know my pieces that well and I often lose focus even if I do. So far my teacher has never complaint about my timing and she's not the type that would keep quiet. In the beginning I asked whether I should use the metronome and she said no.

Maybe if the music I played was more complicated I would need it more?

If someone does not feel when they are off pulse, does the metronome help learn it in the long run?

[outin]

Oh if you find a particular passage tricky, it's best to focus on just that passage, rather than play through the whole piece - and then when playing the whole piece focus more on musical expression etc than technique particularly - if you notice technical issues keep going through them and just take a note to return to them later on - then the easy pieces aren't boring at that point.

Yes, I do practice in small sections... but since I have memorizing issues I need to play it all often enough. Otherwise I simply forget everything. Actually I have so far only had real technical problems with passages where my hands are too small. My biggest problem is remembering the notes and especially fingerings. The easier parts take time to stick in my head as well. Mostly my slowing down is because I forget fingerings rather than not being able to play something fast. Actually I don't slow down, but there's a pause before I get back on track. Don't see what the metronome would do except cause more panic. So I guess what I mean by difficult is not quite the same as someone elses...

If the piece is boring, then how can I make myself concentrate on musicality? I usually just zone out...

[robertinventor]

Okay great. I don't know, it's not a problem I ever encounter, finding a way to get interested in slow easy pieces, always am anyway. But I'm not very proficient at keyboard technically myself, especially reading other people's work though I do a lot of improvising and composing at the keyboard from time to time.

But perhaps paying attention to phrasing, and individual notes more? And the balance of the music, counterpoint, singing lines, varying the quality of individual notes, that sort of thing without going over the top but like e.g. you might play one part slightly staccatto and another part simultaneously legato, work on the balance, play one hand very quiet and the other loud - maybe for instance even deliberately try out unexpected ideas - and you can have slow tempo changes too - those help to shape the music. E.g. if a part is exciting (not hard to play so maybe not the part you find most interesting or challenging at all - but a highlight of the music for the listener, often a high note) you might have a gradual accelerando into it, (not necessarily always one that is obvious to the listener, some of these might be changes in tempo of just a few BPM so you can try those as well as more obvious changes) and maybe a sudden but subtle change of tempo after it - or a deccelerando- or the other way around, can slow down for a really interesting part too, linger on the notes which hang beautifully in the air for a moment or two. Also gradual change of volume too - and one hand or even one phrase in one hand might be going gradually quieter while another is going louder at the same time.

There is a lot of technique in slow "easy" passages.

You can make even the simplest phrase sound really interesting, even e.g. twinkle twinkle little star or something like that. Or even a simple scale passage or arpeggio. Not sure what it is exactly.

If that sort of thing doesn't come naturally to you, then you might need some suggestions and ideas to work on for the technically easier parts of the piece you definitely need things to think about and work on with the musicality and they are by no means done and finished when you have mastered them technically. Have you asked your teacher about this? Things to think about while working on easy passages?

Yes I can't remember things either, so can sympathize there! Just have a few pieces I can remember in their entirety (for recorder as that's my main instrument).

Yes, I do practice in small sections... but since I have memorizing issues I need to play it all often enough. Otherwise I simply forget everything. Actually I have so far only had real technical problems with passages where my hands are too small. My biggest problem is remembering the notes and especially fingerings. The easier parts take time to stick in my head as well. Mostly my slowing down is because I forget fingerings rather than not being able to play something fast. So I guess what I mean by difficult is not quite the same as someone elses...

If the piece is boring, then how can I make myself concentrate on musicality? I usually just zone out...

[robertinventor]

Just to say, since your teacher says you don't need a metronome, well - some musicians don't use them or not much, horses for courses. It just depends on what works for you and a good teacher will teach you in an individual way keeping in mind your capabilities and strengths .

Hmmm... I am either a complete idiot or I just know whether I am in time or not...I don't feel I need the metronome because I instantly know when I am off pulse. It happens all the time because I don't always know my pieces that well and I often lose focus even if I do. So far my teacher has never complaint about my timing and she's not the type that would keep quiet. In the beginning I asked whether I should use the metronome and she said no.

Maybe if the music I played was more complicated I would need it more?

If someone does not feel when they are off pulse, does the metronome help learn it in the long run?

[robertinventor]

Oh there is something else that someone said (can't remember who or when) that I found really helpful for musical expression on keyboard - just passing it on in case you find it useful too. That's to play as if you were playing an orchestra. So you can play like a violin, or like a flute, or like timpani, or like a french horn or whatever. Either that makes sense or it doesn't you can give it a go and see if it means anything to you. Can add like an extra dimension to your playing if it works for you.

Robert

[outin]

Okay great. I don't know, it's not a problem I ever encounter, finding a way to get interested in slow easy pieces, always am anyway.

We have a bit of a misundestanding... I don't equal slow = boring or easy .
Rather it's the opposite. In slow sections the inadequacy of one's playing is often painfully clear...

But I have actually found a solution, if after the initial stages I find the piece boring I just throw it away
It seems to take me a while befoe I know if I like to play something or not...

[hfmadopter]

Ah but what if you don't realize you are rushing? Wouldn't a metronome be useful?

I suggest this as a practice for a person like yourself who has rushing issues. Turn on your metronome to the time of the music and count out loud to the metronome, no playing just counting. In say,  4/4 time count, 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and. Feel that pulse and get your finger to tap on the 1 2 3 4 not on the and. Count internally without the metronome. You can go to work and count this without being at the piano ( work mate will wonder why you tap your finger a lot !), go shopping for groceries and count as you walk to that beat. Go to your local walking trail and count internally the 1 2 3 4 as the right foot hits the ground, count the and as the off beat. I ride my bicycle and count the 1 2 3 4 on my right foot as it pushes down on the right pedal ( I use clip ins so can count the up stroke as the and) Come home and sit at the piano, play with no metronome, if in a week or two you don't notice some difference I don't know to say then !

Watch Valentina play, she litterally counts out as she hits tough passages and so do some other advanced player ( as well they speak out the chordal progession sometimes too). if you are in a recital you can't turn on a metronome. So you use your internal one. You have to condition yourself to do this though  and that won't take very long to do but it ends up being a life long habit, in my case anyway..

If you still have rushing issues after this little excercise then get professional help from a teacher. I haven't had a teacher for 30 or so years now but I still do this as I said above. That's why my metronome is away. Metronomes are a crutch or can turn into one.
David

[robertinventor]

Okay, well I'm not a teacher, and I don't have the same issue. But if that happened to me, I'd want to look at it a bit more carefully and see what is happening.

E.g. I might ask myself, is that any particular technical issue or just that I've heard pianists play the same slow pieces and it sounds so amazing and I can't seem to do the same myself? If it's a techy issue - then it is addressable and can be solved eventually surely, once you figure out which elements of your technique are causing the issues. Focusing on a particular measure or one or two measures and working on your technique of course is something you can do just as much for slow as for fast passages.

But it's natural to have pieces that are favourites. If it's the other thing that you can't match up to other people's playing and your general expectations of yourself, well it makes sense to focus on pieces you can play well and enjoy and work on your technique, and build confidence, and can be that you are playing pieces that are just a bit too hard for you, add one or two easier pieces to your repertory - I mean not just that you can play all the notes easily but also technically easy to play with musical expression as well, you need to have that element of enjoying what you do, and playing it with ease and confidence, and all the positive stuff that comes from that.

JUst a few ideas, not solutions .

We have a bit of a misundestanding... I don't equal slow = boring or easy .
Rather it's the opposite. In slow sections the inadequacy of one's playing is often painfully clear...

But I have actually found a solution, if after the initial stages I find the piece boring I just throw it away
It seems to take me a while befoe I know if I like to play something or not...

[outin]

In general it is interesting, why some teachers feel that the metronome is a must when learning to play and some seem to think not.

The experience I have from piano teachers around here (most have some sort of pedacogical education) is that they don't tell beginners to use the metronome at all. None of mine and also none of the teachers of my friends. We did not even have a metronome as a child, and two of my siblings also played. My flute teacher never talked about using a metronome either. So I have always assumed that it is more useful for advanced musicians.

[outin]

E.g. I might ask myself, is that any particular technical issue or just that I've heard pianists play the same slow pieces and it sounds so amazing and I can't seem to do the same myself?

I would say it's the latter. I want my playing to sound as beautiful as what I hear from real pianists. An impossible task I know, but that is why I started playing the piano, to produce those beautiful sounds. I cannot accept any slips or mistakes in voicing, improper accents or unsmooth legato passages. When you play fast these can be better hidden. In general I do prefer slower music, I only play fast things to improve my finger dexterity a little. Fast passages tend to be easier to memorize because there's no time to question if something is right, the fingers just seem to know what to do.

[robertinventor]

Okay makes sense to me .

I would say it's the latter. I want my playing to sound as beautiful as what I hear from real pianists. An impossible task I know, but that is why I started playing the piano, to produce those beautiful sounds. I cannot accept any slips or mistakes in voicing, improper accents or unsmooth legato passages. When you play fast these can be better hidden. In general I do prefer slower music, I only play fast things to improve my finger dexterity a little. Fast passages tend to be easier to memorize because there's no time to question if something is right, the fingers just seem to know what to do.

[robertinventor]

Just a thought, most beginner musicians find it hard to play in time with a metronome. I think it happens because of that issue that when you are in time with it then the metronome click seems to vanish or is harder to hear. Maybe they feel it is more of a distraction than a help at that stage just because it is hard to do it right? Like beginner musicians have enough to deal with already without having to try to play in time with a pesky metronome as well .

Though if you want to play with a metronome it is just a matter of learning metronome technique, and not jumping in at the deep end can't expect to play a complex piece of music along with a metronome right away - e.g. just one note to each click e.g. when you practise scales and arpeggios or whatever, to sometimes play with a metronome, slowly, and focus on burying every click so the metronome tick vanishes, do that from time to time and it gets much easier to play with a metronome.

It does add to your confidence playing with a metronome if you have any timing issues at all - in the right kind of way developing your inner sense of rhythm further, like having your own conductor or drummer at hand whenever you need it to help with your timing.

I can say that as a beginner myself, find it really helpful and most definitely wouldn't call myself an "advanced musician" .

Anyway I've got this video plan to do about playing with a metronome did a dry run yesterday went okay, so maybe I'll do it properly and upload that see if it helps. Feel reluctant to do it as I'm not a music teacher, but there is hardly anything there about it especially videos and showing in detail how to play with a metronome - so it is clearly needed - and as a researcher, if I look at it like that way I've discovered all these things that don't seem to be widely known about metronome technique, you don't need to be an amazing musician to just talk about the things you found out in this way hopefully .

In general it is interesting, why some teachers feel that the metronome is a must when learning to play and some seem to think not.

The experience I have from piano teachers around here (most have some sort of pedacogical education) is that they don't tell beginners to use the metronome at all. None of mine and also none of the teachers of my friends. We did not even have a metronome as a child, and two of my siblings also played. My flute teacher never talked about using a metronome either. So I have always assumed that it is more useful for advanced musicians.

[werq34ac]

I suggest this as a practice for a person like yourself who has rushing issues. Turn on your metronome to the time of the music and count out loud to the metronome, no playing just counting. In say,  4/4 time count, 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and. Feel that pulse and get your finger to tap on the 1 2 3 4 not on the and. Count internally without the metronome. You can go to work and count this without being at the piano ( work mate will wonder why you tap your finger a lot !), go shopping for groceries and count as you walk to that beat. Go to your local walking trail and count internally the 1 2 3 4 as the right foot hits the ground, count the and as the off beat. I ride my bicycle and count the 1 2 3 4 on my right foot as it pushes down on the right pedal ( I use clip ins so can count the up stroke as the and) Come home and sit at the piano, play with no metronome, if in a week or two you don't notice some difference I don't know to say then !

Watch Valentina play, she litterally counts out as she hits tough passages and so do some other advanced player ( as well they speak out the chordal progession sometimes too). if you are in a recital you can't turn on a metronome. So you use your internal one. You have to condition yourself to do this though  and that won't take very long to do but it ends up being a life long habit, in my case anyway..

If you still have rushing issues after this little excercise then get professional help from a teacher. I haven't had a teacher for 30 or so years now but I still do this as I said above. That's why my metronome is away. Metronomes are a crutch or can turn into one.
David

was that for me? I find that beating the pulse out like is incredibly debilitating to my musicality. It's a not a serious problem, and I'm perfectly capable of fixing it my friend. Thanks, but it wasn't necessary.  And yes I have a teacher. Usually simply being aware that I'm rushing fixes the problem.

[hfmadopter]

was that for me? I find that beating the pulse out like is incredibly debilitating to my musicality. It's a not a serious problem, and I'm perfectly capable of fixing it my friend. Thanks, but it wasn't necessary.  And yes I have a teacher. Usually simply being aware that I'm rushing fixes the problem.

That's great, glad you are getting on well ! I just tend to type, one word leads to the next. If it doesn't apply, always best to ignor. I've noticed myself that my posts are getting a bit long. I'll have to address that.
David

[robertinventor]

Here is the video I promised:

Starts with open questions to get started thinking about other ways of using a metronome - then goes on to talk about the new ideas in metronome technique in the later segments.

As it is rather a long video, this is one of the highlights, about how you can merge with the click in a relaxed and enjoyable way.

And depends on this one - talks in detail about the vanishing click