how fast can you play scales?

[danhuyle]

I can play my scales at 100 per crotchet in semiquavers. Currently practicing to get it over 100.

When it gets to 120 per crotchet, that's when I hit a brick wall. How do people play scales at such high speeds?

How fast can you play your scales?

[rmbarbosa]

Using P.S.
For example: play c-d-e-f-g together. Then lift your 2º finger a little, your 3º a little more, etc. and play again c-d-e-f-g letting your hand drop on the keyboard. In this way, now you are playing the 5 notes not together but incredibly fast. ok?

Then, play c-d-e and play f with your 1º finger, in the same way. You dont pass your 1º finger under the 3º, you make a horizontall mouvement of your hand in order that your 1º finger plays the f, you see? Tehn, the same for the second part of the scale:f-g-a-b. It`s easy (but my English is uggly, sorry )

[raphaelinparis]

Using P.S.
For example: play c-d-e-f-g together. Then lift your 2º finger a little, your 3º a little more, etc. and play again c-d-e-f-g letting your hand drop on the keyboard. In this way, now you are playing the 5 notes not together but incredibly fast. ok?

Then, play c-d-e and play f with your 1º finger, in the same way. You dont pass your 1º finger under the 3º, you make a horizontall mouvement of your hand in order that your 1º finger plays the f, you see? Tehn, the same for the second part of the scale:f-g-a-b. It`s easy (but my English is uggly, sorry )

man, if this works you made my day thanks 

[brianlucas]

That horizontal movement rather than thumb under technique is used a lot in jazz.  I find that a combination of the 2 techniques gives me the best results.

[werq34ac]

I used to be able to hit 200 (in 16h notes, are those semiquavers?), but then I realized my scales were slightly messy. So I lowered the tempo to around 160. Nevertheless, without the thumb under technique, it's not possible to play them that fast evenly. Here's a tip, as soon as you play your 2nd finger, put your thumb under so that it is not late when you move into the next position. Don't try to raise the speed all at once. Gradually like maybe 4-5 points every 2-3 weeks. Don't go any faster if it's not 1) clean, NO WRONG NOTES 2) even, if it's not even you are doing something wrong 3) relaxed and comfortable, as pianists we will be playing lots and lots of scales. It's important that we are relaxed and comfortable so we don't tense our muscles (which makes it very difficult to play)

[nataliethepianist]

Up to 16th notes, it's awkward in band when every other instrument can play 16th notes by dividing, but I can't...

[pianoplayjl]

My fastest scales are at most 100 crotchet beats in semiquavers.

[kellyc]

I got my scales up to 160  - beat equals quarter notes playing sixteenth notes, and then stopped caring how fast I was playing.  What I did do was to practice all kinds of touches , dynamics, beat pulses and combinations so that I not only played the scales at that speed, I played them with complete control. I can play faster, but never bothered to see how fast.

I am only going to talk about one aspect of fast scale playing, and that is the right hand going up. The thumb passing under the hand is the easy part . Learn to move the thumb smoothly behind each finger as it plays. I have found the hard part is after the thumb has played, the hand is twisted getting the second finger in position to play is where most of the real difficulties occur. What I do is begin to cheat as the tempo increases. That is I release either the third or fourth finger earlier so that before the thumb actually plays the hand is already untwisting and the second finger is in proper position to strike its note. The quicker you play the quicker you release the third or fourth finger. It takes some getting used to, but once you get the hang of it , your speed begins to increase very nicely.  You will find similar actions for the left hand and for going back down the piano.

Hope this helps. Good luck in your velocity.


Kelly

[pianoplayjl]

Wow, kelly. I don't know what you mean, but it sounds really fast to me.

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

For my exam, I have to play it at 120...
but my teacher wants me to play it faster (132?) so that I can relax during the exam. I've got a long way to go.
Right now, 132 sounds like an absolute mess, so I practice at just 120, or 116 for the more difficult scales, and 126 for some of the more comfortable ones (E major, B major ! ). I admit I am not practising my scales as much as a should.  

Oh and I'm talking about sixteenth note parallel motion scales. Forget scales in octaves or even formula patterns!  :-/

Anyway, my teacher says its just something I'll have to do gradually. Stick to a speed that's comfortable and then speed it up a notch. And once I'm comfortable and not making mistakes at that tempo, speed it up a little, again.

[starstruck5]

Playing scales quickly and smoothly is obviously important, but having control over the dynamics ie, being able to get louder or faster, or play rapidly and softly is the real skill.

[werq34ac]

Playing scales quickly and smoothly is obviously important, but having control over the dynamics ie, being able to get louder or faster, or play rapidly and softly is the real skill.

Control over dynamics has nothing to do with getting faster. And control over dynamics is just another aspect of technique. In fact, while practicing your scales, one can also practice their dynamics! Get louder as you go up and softer as you go down, or vice versa, or whatever you want to do with dynamics. Have fun with your scales without compromising the integrity of the actual technique of playing scales.

There should be no twisting of the wrist whatsoever. Playing scales should be a linear motion. As for Kelly's problem with getting the 2nd finger on time, I think it's just a matter of releasing the 3rd/4th finger AS SOON AS you play the thumb. No overlap in sound whatsoever.

As for control over my scales, I can do whatever I want with my scales, changes of color, dynamic control, staccato scales (well, staccato as in the crispness of the sound, rather than a shorter note since the notes at that speed are very short in the first place. It's achieved by a gap in sound between each note), legato scales, you name it, at fairly fast speeds. I want to say about 170+ (to the quarter playing 16ths) but I haven't checked for sure.

Also what might help is using the natural movement of the finger. If you retract your finger, you will find that it goes towards your wrist rather than straight down (the motion we use for piano). Although creating a much lighter sound, one can use the retraction of the finger to play the note rather than the straight down motion that is usually used. It's sorta like pulling away from each key (with the fingers, NOT THE ARM/WRIST).

Another tip is not making an unnecessary movements. Lift your finger only as far as it needs to be lifted in order to play the next note. Your wrist should NEVER bob like beginning pianists always do.. Don't waste any time at all with anything unnecessary.

And finally, your brain is ALWAYS faster than your fingers. Brain signals travel at close to 800mph  (I think, someone might want to check that) through your body and the brain is probably THE fastest part of the human body. Piano combines the physical, emotional, intellectual, and spiritual.

[kellyc]

Hi Werq34ac.

 I think you might have mis read my post. I never said I had a problem with my second finger. I was only pointing out that I have noticed others having a problem. All I was doing was describing that problem and how it might be remedied. 

Kelly

[farm boy]

So as we are all talking/singing "out of the same hymn book", I am aiming towars 160mm.  Now that means precisely setting your metronome to 160 and playing 4 notes per beat - irrelevent whether they are crotchets, semiquavers or whatever - 4 notes per metronome click. So say C major scale - C on first click and then G on next click, etc., etc.

[werq34ac]

Hi Werq34ac.

 I think you might have mis read my post. I never said I had a problem with my second finger. I was only pointing out that I have noticed others having a problem. All I was doing was describing that problem and how it might be remedied. 

Kelly

Ah but you never mentioned in your post that it wasn't you who had the problem. Either way, the hand shouldn't be twisting into each position, once you play the thumb, you should already be in the new position.

[pianoplayjl]

I can play my scales a little bit faster but sometimes my scales mess up.

[nyiregyhazi]

I have found the hard part is after the thumb has played, the hand is twisted getting the second finger in position to play is where most of the real difficulties occur.

After the thumb has played, the other fingers should naturally be flicked into position by nothing more than the action of the thumb itself. If this does not happen, it suggest either an inadequate level of thumb action or excessive arm pressure/stiffness that represses the natural reaction to the thumb's movement. I've written a post illustrating this that I intend to put up soon, once I've got some accompanying videos sorted out. Simply to play the thumb should be more than enough to send the other fingers straight over and onto their notes within a split second.

It's not that I wish to dismiss the alternative "thumb over" technique by any means, but I think people often fail to realise quite how far you can go with thumb under technique- provided that the thumb is active and that the hand is loose enough to be thrown across in response. I think the limits of thumb under should be fully explored. When it is done well there should be no question that the other fingers could possibly get stuck in their previous position, after the thumb sounds. With a single compound movement (rather than one to play the thumb and then an extra one to crank the fingers over the top) it's possible to go very fast with a literal thumb under. The whole arm should automatically realign itself around the thumb- without any sense of twisting the hand at all.

[adam2]

Here's my stab.

If you don't have a solid foundation before attempting fast scales, you are probably of the majority that will MAKE a wall for yourself.  I find that most students want to and end up playing scales much faster than they could ever possibly passably play a piece.  After two years of piano, I had begun approaching velocity pragmatically and carefully per the recommendation of my instructor.  Of course I had trouble with it, and of course I wanted to play much faster than my capacity would allow.  I had a "D'OH!" Moment during a practice session and was suddenly able to play much faster easily within a half hour after a few adjustments.  The following weeks saw my speed and coordination go up dramatically.  But also, my repertoire benefitted tremendously, because the fastest passages were now precise and elegant.  I had a fantastic teacher, and I studied a conservative 2hours every day for those two years, so was prepared for the scales to be stepped up.  If you are being called upon by a teacher to play faster or you have a good foundation, here are some pointers.

1.  You must vill it into existence!  A reference to barenboims single-note crescendo.  Aural preparation and the will to synthesize the beats in the mind is often the biggest hurdle between a student and smoothe, fast scales.  That means you.  If you cannot hear steeply subdivided notes, then you cannot imagine them.  If you can hear them, but are having trouble synthesizing faster subdivisions with mind or mouth, you cannot play fast smoothe scales.  There is no room for ego with fast scales unless you can already play them.  If you can very easily synthesize very even divisions of a very even pulse, the 90% of the work is done.

1.  True legato is not possible at faster speeds.  The more control and better technique you have, then the more options you have on the virtual range of legato and staccato.  But if you are trying to teach your mind and body faster scales,  I recommend choosing two levels:  legato-ish and a more fleeting leggierissimo.  True legato is IMPOSSIBLE PERIOD at faster speeds.  Prepare accordingly.

1.  Know your scales utterly and intimately, at slow to medium speeds, inside and out upside down, ht and hs, left hand and right hand accompaniment, duplets, triplets, quintuplets, sextuplets AND septuplets AND every division thereof.  You should be able to start on any key and know where it will end up any number of beats later.  Seems excessive, I know, but even if you try this stuff, your scale familiarity will rise above its current point and that's the point.

1. The less your thumb passes under your hand, the faster your scales can be.  The hypothetical fastest speed you can achieve will see the thumb never passing under the hand, and the hand is already in an optimal position for the thumb to simply and minutely lower as it depresses the key.  Thumb under is only useful for legato, which again is impssible to achieve at a faster speed.  The key is to move the hand and rotate the wrist in a coordinated fashion so fluidly and quickly between thumb and finger, finger and thumb that the length of the two adjacent tones are identical and continue to be identical throughout.

1.  Still stipulate your goal dynamics where you want them.  Achieving the goal dynamics during scales ensures focus and will burden your mind and balance enough to draw undue attention away from your technique and toward your musicianship.

1. If you arent controlling your dynamics with your arm weight, you can't play fast scales.  At the same time, if you are supporting your arm weight with the played finger, then you will have significantly less control and stamina.

1.  Wrist rotation is what allows the weak and slow nature of the finger to be circumvented.  You simply cannot play your fastest with your fingers unassisted by wrist rotation.  The finger is brought to its nominal capacity at the key by the hand position, arm position and the wrist rotation into place. However, there is a major pitfall here: do not apply wrist rotation more than what is necessary to meet your fingers halfway.  It is only to assist the arm in the application of minimal force to the intended key for the intended effect at the goal velocity.

1.  Minimize movement.  The single most general and therefore greatest hindrance to speed( and indeed all musical actions) is excessive movement.  Excessive or altogether extraneous movement is effective only for timekeeping or showmanship purposes.  Don't swing your thumb under too much(or at all), no excessive wrist rotation, don't raise your fingers,  don't hold your arm weight by the finger... All examples of minimizing movement.  Do what you can with it.  to play a beautiful volumous, dynamic,  smoothe, lightning fast scales is by and far a display of delicate balance in the hand finely manipulated by a trained mind.

1. There are slow scales and there are slow-motion scales. When practicing for velocity,  there is nothing more vital than slow-motion scale work.  Here is where you observe (visually, tactally, aurally) your technique for speed under a microscope to see what you are doing right or wrong.  Here is where you condition new techniques to be fitted into into your toolbox.  Every extreme of the spectrum for hand position, finger height and shape, note length, wrist position, dynamic level, fingering, thumb action etc can be experimented.  Then they can be adjusted and tailored to the occasion.  This is where you will fit all the ideas you have for getting faster into your practice routine.

[faulty_damper]

Stop pressing down.

[andrewkoay]

Stop pressing down.

Fully agree, the more one presses down, the more tension one has and the less one can play fast.

[chopin2015]

Fully agree, the more one presses down, the more tension one has and the less one can play fast.

x10000

also just hunch down so I am blocking full use of my body weight and arm weight, and just play with my fingers and elbows. Then you can add the back into it, making sure your back keeps your shoulders from collapsing down onto your arms...

this is just a thought. I do not recommend ever messing with your posture. your arms should be able to switch between light and heavy playing, regardless. Does anyone have any comment on posture to playing with just your fingers?