Fingering thought on Arpeggios ?

[scott13]

Hey all,

Just want to open a discussion on fingering for all forms of arpeggios, in particular playing every arpeggio with the same fingering. I did initially learn the "standard way" where by keys such as Eb Major would start on 2. The other day however, i thought about playing everything with the same fingering (same idea to the Brahms 51 exercises).

Now my teacher, commented this is completely wrong, yet there seems to be a Romantic period notion, mainly found in Chopin and Liszt of playing with a universal fingering, as found in the B minor Sonata, and Chopin's Op 10 #5, to name a couple. Also accounts on Liszt's playing indicate that he in fact did the same thing with arpeggios.

I did feel my arpeggios became much easier when you use the same fingering, and to my ears they sound more legato when played without pedal.

What are others experiences on this issue? Are there many who play as i do? Some pros and cons of each way would be helpful from a more experienced player too.

Thanks

[fleetfingers]

I have always played arpeggios with the same fingering in all keys: RH 1235 and LH 5321

Not being aware of a "standard way" and never having played with any other fingering, I cannot comment on which is better. But I am wondering why your teacher says to start with the 2nd finger? Would the 1st finger follow? I am trying to picture it...

I would love to hear what others say on this subject and what the reasons are for playing different fingerings for different keys.

[ted]

For fast finger work playing forms of any sort I tend to think more and more in terms of whole hand groups joined by hand (and arm) displacement with as little twisting or passing under as possible. To a certain extent this is a consequence of improvisation, where a universal movement, applicable to many situations, even if not always optimal, is better than carefully worked out special solutions for special situations. This for the obvious reason that improvisation does not allow time to work much out physically.

I rarely play arpeggios or scales in their common forms because I don't find them interesting enough musically, but unless the music is very slow then yes, I think I would go for universal groups connected by displacement.

All my technique is home-grown though, and directed to my own musical ends, so I might be completely wrong in regard to playing classical pieces. 

[nyiregyhazi]

I did feel my arpeggios became much easier when you use the same fingering, and to my ears they sound more legato when played without pedal.

Seriously? In E flat major? How? It makes no sense whatsoever to me unless there is a PURPOSE for doing it. The thumb is short. It more physically comfortable to use it on white keys and it it easier to make legato (be it physical or simply the sound of legato) than when passing between two black keys. I'm not adverse to the occasional departure but I find it senseless not to group an arpeggios into the most physically comfortable position without just cause. In the last movement of the small Schubert A major sonata I use the thumb on F sharp for some first inversion D major arpeggios because it keeps the fingering consistent and makes it easier to link to the next bar. Importantly, it also means there's one less position shift than the standard fingering.

However,I would never do such a thing without significant reasons. I'm just trying to picture the arpeggios at the end of Chopin's op. 25 no. 1. How on earth could anything like that fingering be used there? If you don't know the proper fingering, you're basically going to be screwed in countless situations. Even in Brahms, I've never seen a single instance in music where he suggests this fingering. While he indeed fingers in chunks and positions, I've never seen him do those ones. If I were to finger E flat in chunks I'd do a position of four notes and then another. The first chunk would start and end on E flat and then next would start and end on G. To have the thumb recurring on E flat would be senseless in just about any context I can think of. Brahms typically based his chunks on physical comfort and to allow the fewest shifts possible- not on needlessly awkward fingerings (that demand an equal number of shifts to that of a comfortable fingering) . The shift required here is exactly the type of awkward passing that Brahms' chunks serve to AVOID. An exercise is an exercise. His fingerings in music are more revealing.

As a general rule this kind of fingering is either for supervirtuosos (who know the alternatives equally well and sound great either way) or for amateurs (who often don't know the regular fingering and who tend to sound extremely choppy and awkward either way). It's not something to treat as much more than an exercise unless you're already at an extremely high standard.

Excuse my bluntness, but in most cases this is just a lazy fingering. However, if you look beneath the surface, what seems harder is massively easier. The trick is to conceive all arpeggios from the thumb note- not from the first note. When you practise E flat in first inversion, it soon becomes clear how short-sighted it is to assume that keeping the C major fingering is in any way easier. I've seen student after student strain with this fingering. As soon as they understand the shape is in first inversion and feel it from the thumbs, it flows at once.

[scott13]

@Fleet, think of Eb major, my teacher believes fingering should always be 2 1 2 4 1 2 4 (ascending RH). From what i gather, my teacher doesn't like the notion of thumb on black keys at all, funny really as how else would one play Chopin's Black Key etude?

@Ted, your point is what i have found, that a quick lateral movement from the shoulder is far easier and more legato than twisting the thumb all the time.

@nyiregyhazi - I feel far more comfortable actually moving from the shoulder with a flick of the arm, than twisting the thumb under fingers so i can start on 2 for black keys. The main argument against this way of playing arpeggios is they sound choppy, which frankly is crap. If you practice the flick of the arm its faster than turning under a finger/thumb. The only other valid argument i have heard is that some diminished arpeggios can become more difficult, however, once you get used to the movement and practice for accuracy, it sounds far better, in my opinion.

Also since you mention Op 10 #1, this has to be played with a sweeping motion of the arm (a flick) or you will never get arpeggios fluent at the tempo marked. Same goes for the Back Key Etude as well.

I see it as, your thumb plays chords on black keys, so why not the broken chord on black keys?

[scott13]

Just looked at the section in Op 25 #1 and the RH arpeggio starts on a C not the Ab and it is 1 that starts the C, so i would play it as written. I'm talking about arpeggios that explicitly start on a black key, not an inversion which conforms to my normal 1235 fingering for scales such a C minor.

An example would be 1st inversion B major, i would start with my thumb on D# then 2 plays F# 3 plays B flick the hand and thumb is back on D#.

[nyiregyhazi]

"@Fleet, think of Eb major, my teacher believes fingering should always be 2 1 2 4 1 2 4 (ascending RH). From what i gather, my teacher doesn't like the notion of thumb on black keys at all, funny really as how else would one play Chopin's Black Key etude?"

Thinking this way is the mistake. Practise it by starting on G first.

"@nyiregyhazi - I feel far more comfortable actually moving from the shoulder with a flick of the arm, than twisting the thumb under fingers so i can start on 2 for black keys. The main argument against this way of playing arpeggios is they sound choppy, which frankly is crap. If you practice the flick of the arm its faster than turning under a finger/thumb."

The implication being that using the standard fingering prohibits that possibility? Well it does not. Your fingering requires passing a fourth fourth between two black keys. In a slow tempo controlled legato is absurdly awkward. The standard fingering passes a mere major third and doesn't require the thumb to go well into the keyboard. And if you want to play op. 25 no. 1, you'll have to learn the proper fingering anyway. You should listen to your teacher. Unless you're at the level of Hamelin, I'll bet that there are audible holes all over the place- and that this is exactly why your teacher wants you to use the comfortable fingering.

"Also since you mention Op 10 #1, this has to be played with a sweeping motion of the arm (a flick) or you will never get arpeggios fluent at the tempo marked. Same goes for the Back Key Etude as well."

25 no. 1.

[nyiregyhazi]

Just looked at the section in Op 25 #1 and the RH arpeggio starts on a C not the Ab and it is 1 that starts the C, so i would play it as written. I'm talking about arpeggios that explicitly start on a black key, not an inversion which conforms to my normal 1235 fingering for scales such a C minor.

And the left? You'll finish one finger short at the top.

[scott13]

LH i would start on 5, like i start every other arpeggio in the LH.

Interestingly enough, Liszt's technical exercises agree with me, every single arpeggio always starts on 5 in LH and 1 in RH (for ascending). Now it is widely accepted Liszt was the greatest pianist in history, so my question to you is, "why would he use a fingering, if an easier and more natural one existed" ?

[nyiregyhazi]

LH i would start on 5, like i start every other arpeggio in the LH.

Interestingly enough, Liszt's technical exercises agree with me, every single arpeggio always starts on 5 in LH and 1 in RH (for ascending). Now it is widely accepted Liszt was the greatest pianist in history, so my question to you is, "why would he use a fingering, if an easier and more natural one existed" ?

Yes, and I pointed out that this will leave an extra note and hence require an awkward passing at the top. You didn't respond to that point. It's the equivalent of the starting point to E flat major in the right hand. You'd have to to do the equivalent movement over and over again in the left hand. Ironically, people typically depart with standard fingerings to avoid this type of repeated awkwardness. Your "maverick" fingering CAUSES a needlessly excessive number of passes and stops things fitting nicely into the chunks Chopin formulated the passage in!

The point is that Liszt used such fingerings WHEN THEY SERVED A PURPOSE! Not because he was too lazy to learn the proper fingerings or to think through what context he was fitting his fingerings into. Mavericks break rules because of the depth of their understanding. Not because of superficial logic or desire to learn as few fingerings as possible. If you're not understanding the bigger picture in full, you'll cause yourself far more troubles than you resolve, with these fingerings.

[scott13]

I think we need to agree to disagree.

Liszt wrote his exercises to develop his own technique and to be used by his students, therefore my point stands, if he was teaching students to play arpeggios this way, it would have been because they are easier to play (in my opinion, and clearly his going by his fingering in the b minor sonata, as well as the piano conerto in Eb)

[nyiregyhazi]

I think we need to agree to disagree.

Liszt wrote his exercises to develop his own technique and to be used by his students, therefore my point stands, if he was teaching students to play arpeggios this way, it would have been because they are easier to play (in my opinion, and clearly his going by his fingering in the b minor sonata, as well as the piano conerto in Eb)

Firstly, there is question as to whether Liszt actually wrote those exercises. Secondly, offering a useful variant does not point to Liszt using these fingering as the norm. You're simply not understanding the context of the fingerings in the B minor sonata. I've played the work many times and recall nothing comparable. In the first subject he uses chunks to fit MORE notes into hand positions. Not to fit THE SAME NUMBER OF NOTES into a more awkward hand position. And other than this single Brahmsian grouping, I cannot recall even one fingering that is remotely unconventional. Are you even familiar with the work?

Forget pretending to be a maverick who knows better than his square old teacher and start by learning to appreciate the context in which real geniuses applied their fingerings. You're not Liszt and you clearly don't understand as he did. Ignoring what I pointed out to you about the Chopin Etude will not stop you getting into such scrapes if you don't bother to learn proper fingerings before leaping into more bizarre variants.

[nyiregyhazi]

I think we need to agree to disagree.

What I'll "agree" to is that you seem to think you are Liszt, that you seem to think you know more than your teacher and that you have scarcely even understood the very surface of the concepts that you are hoping to employ.

[scott13]

Firstly, there is question as to whether Liszt actually wrote those. Secondly, offering a useful variant does not point to Liszt using these fingering as the norm. You're simply not understanding the context of the fingerings in the B minor sonata. I've played the work many times and recall nothing comparable. In the first subject he uses chunks to fit MORE notes into hand positions. Not to fit THE SAME NUMBER OF NOTES into a more awkward hand position.

Forget pretending to be a maverick who knows better than his square old teacher and start by learning to appreciate the context in which real geniuses applied their fingerings. You're not Liszt and you clearly don't understand as he did. Ignoring what I pointed out to you about the Chopin Etude will not stop you getting into such scrapes if you don't bother to learn proper fingerings before leaping into more bizarre variants.

Sadly we will never know what Liszt used as the norm, but i fail to see why you are arguing this further when MY HAND does not fit around the "normal" fingering at all, that is why i looked for an alternative.

What annoys me about some on this forum is that you seem to think you are always right, when how can you know how my arpeggios sound or how my hand is shaped in regards to fingering them? Claiming i am lazy or a bad player because my opinion differs from yours is quite pathetic really. Just because you personally don't agree with playing arpeggios like this as the norm, does not mean that another player may feel the same way.

It reminds me of the thumb over technique for scales. Some pianists swear by it, others always turn the thumb under the fingers. Neither is the "right" way of playing, what matters is the end sound and whether or not it produces the desired effect.

[nyiregyhazi]

"Sadly we will never know what Liszt used as the norm, but i fail to see why you are arguing this further when MY HAND does not fit around the "normal" fingering at all, that is why i looked for an alternative. "

Exactly what my students always tell me at first, if they start that way. Nobody's hand fits better that way. Is your thumb as long as your fingers are? You just haven't learned to do it the regular way yet. Either sack your teacher and go it alone (seeing as you know so much better than both him and myself) or listen to what he says.

"What annoys me about some on this forum is that you seem to think you are always right, when how can you know how my arpeggios sound or how my hand is shaped in regards to fingering them?"

Because I've seen it a thousand times before and you clearly don't know what you are talking about. If I'm wrong, would you like to correct the points I made rather than ignore them? Also,would you like to list these supposed examples in the B minor sonata? Trying to use that as an example shows how limited your knowledge is. Sorry but you clearly don't know enough to be a maverick if you're going to cite something quite so conventional to try and back it up with that. Why not upload a video to prove that the passing is inaudible?



"It reminds me of the thumb over technique for scales. Some pianists swear by it, others always turn the thumb under the fingers. Neither is the "right" way of playing, what matters is the end sound and whether or not it produces the desired effect."

Again, you can use this for either fingering anyway. Such a point is utterly irrelevant. You're taking snippets of minimally relevant knowledge and assuming that gives you enough understanding to carve your own special route. Sorry, but I'll say once again- you're not Liszt.

[keyboardclass]

Either sack your teacher and go it alone (seeing as you know so much better than both him and myself) or listen to what he says.

'Go it alone' because he dares presume to know better than you?  Hold on a bleeding minute Einstein!

[nyiregyhazi]

'Go it alone' because he dares presume to know better than you?  Hold on a bleeding minute Einstein!

The list includes his teacher, just about any fingering guide to arpeggios in the history of publishing, just about every single living concert performer and yes, myself.

The concept of avoiding the thumb on black notes in arpeggios without good cause did not come about by chance. It's because the black keys are a long way in and the thumb is short. This makes the fingering virtually unworkable for controlled tone in slower legato passages. Exceptions are typically based on reducing the number of required positions/passings of the thumb. Find me a concert pianist who uses such fingerings as the most common ones and I should be extremely interested to hear about it.

Composers also understood this. How many pieces do you know that feature rapid-fire arpeggios in G flat or E flat minor? Few composers would touch such things with a barge pole. Even Chopin stayed well away from them in his black key Etude.

[keyboardclass]

The list includes his teacher, just about any fingering guide to arpeggios in the history of publishing, just about every single living concert performer and yes, myself.

Delusions of grandeur mate.

[nyiregyhazi]

Delusions of grandeur mate.

Then I'll repeat:

"Find me a concert pianist who uses such fingerings as the most common ones and I should be extremely interested to hear about it."

Then we might have something to discuss- preferably regarding the actual topic here.

[keyboardclass]

Here's Oscar Beringer on Plaidy:

Plaidy was the first to publish a really good book of Technical Studies for the pianoforte of which hundreds of thousands of copies have been sold all over the world.  In this work he advocated transposing the exercises into different keys, retaining the C major fingering throughout, regardless of black keys: he thus had the distinction of initiating our modern fingering.

[nyiregyhazi]

Here's Oscar Beringer on Plaidy:

Yes, that's a very standard and well-known exercise. The point was whether he uses that as the NORMAL fingering for executing scales and arpeggios in regular music- or as an exercise and occasional variant on regular fingerings.

Some people hear about these things and then take it too far, without realising that these are not designed to replace more normal fingerings altogether. What I'm interested in is which renowned performers supposedly adopt these variants as their basic standard fingering. I've never heard of anyone of great accomplishment using such things as the rule, rather than as the occasional exception.

[keyboardclass]

TECHNICAL STUDIES!  Your ignorance, as usual, is showing.  It is how the 'moderns' played.

[nyiregyhazi]

TECHNICAL STUDIES!  Your ignorance, as usual, is showing.  It is how the 'moderns' played.

?

I had asked you to:

"Find me a concert pianist who uses such fingerings as the most common ones and I should be extremely interested to hear about it."

I didn't ask about technical studies outside of the context of music. This topic has been about replacing standard fingerings altogether- not variants or exercises.

[keyboardclass]

...he thus had the distinction of initiating our modern fingering.

[sucom]

After reading all these messages, I find myself having to agree with nyiregyhazi.   If a standard fingering has survived over all these years, there obviously must be a good reason.  And what nyireghazi has said about standard fingering is absolutely correct.  To avoid standard fingering without a good reason is crazy, if not simply because it has been tried and tested to degrees for a very long time by a large number of pianists who have passed this way before.  To avoid standard fingering simply because it’s too difficult or too slow to learn how to pass the thumb under smoothly suggests that someone may be searching for a ‘quick fix’ to play arpeggios.

But I dread to think how many gaps are likely to be created by starting all arpeggios on the thumb and being honest, a well trained ear is likely to pick up these gaps pretty quickly, even if the player is not doing so. 

So forgive me for saying this, but when someone says they believe ALL arpeggios, even those which begin on black keys, should begin on the thumb, I immediately think to myself, hmmm, someone is trying to avoid the best way simply because it’s the easiest route.  Sometimes, the route may appear more difficult, but actually, the more difficult route is often the one which produces the best results.  Quick fixes never pay off!


The argument about Liszt’s use of alternative fingering as a suggestion that he might also have played arpeggios with his thumbs on black notes is not cutting it for me.  I studied with Joseph Weingarten, who himself studied at the Liszt Academy in Budapest in the early 1900’s and although he did offer alternative fingerings to facilitate certain passages, there was never a time when he suggested using anything other than the standard fingering for arpeggios.   In fact, if I remember rightly, he was very stringent about using correct fingerings to ensure notes were always played exactly as they should sound – legato, smooth, speedy……  Not only this, the use of specific fingering can facilitate weight on individual keys allowing the fingering to help along the expression and flow.


What he did show me, however, was an exercise to improve the position of my fingers on the keys and this DID involve putting thumbs on black keys. In no way, though, was this intended to ‘replace’ the standard fingering of scales and arpeggios but more to improve finger position and strength, which would later create faster, smoother playing.  What I am saying, therefore, is that there is a place for standard fingering BUT there is also a place, and situations, for also being able to play with the thumbs on black keys.  To be able to do both will obviously improve one’s playing to a large extent.  However, one was never designed to replace the other.

[nyiregyhazi]

I have no idea what "modern fingering" is even supposed to refer to. Where are the scores that are loaded with fingerings showing thumbs on black notes in E flat major arpeggios (other than as variants in exercises)? Where are the pianists who use such fingerings as the norm and where is the evidence for them? Where are the successes of this approach to be seen?

[keyboardclass]

I have no idea what "modern fingering" is even supposed to refer to.

In which case reading Oscar Beringer would be wasted on you.

[escort]

I don't ever actually post, but meh...  I'll state the obvious here and head on out.

Not to put words in nyiregyazi's mouth, but he's referring to context, and some of you just aren't understanding that. 
Example.  You have a 2 octave Eb scale starting and ending on Eb.  Would you use the CM fingering?  Possibly, depends on what was before it in the piece or whether it's comfortable.  Now, if we stay in Eb and start on G and do two octaves, would you keep the CM fingering and start with 2?  Dear god, I hope not.  Did you guys even try his suggestion of playing an Eb scale starting on G?  1st Inversion Arpeggio.  If not, try it, and understand the groupings involved here.  The fingering is reliant on context.  Did you guys actually look at the arpeggios at the end of Etude Op.25 No.1?  They're not grouped in a way that's possible with CM standard fingerings (unless you want to cross over a bunch of extra times and make things hellaciously awkward, which is what the original poster was trying to avoid in the first place).  CONTEXT! 

[nyiregyhazi]

In which case reading Oscar Beringer would be wasted on you.

I have no idea what it means because it is not a standard phrase in any widely accepted musical vocabulary and it is has not been attached to any specifically defined meaning. Anyone can make up terms. If Beringer himself actually defines it, you might want to provide that definition- in order to place the quotation in a meaningful context.

Regardless, if it does not advise routinely using C major fingering for all root position arpeggios within pieces of music it has no bearing on either any of my own points, or on this thread in general. I've seen plenty of modern arpeggio books and none of them felt the need for a more "modern fingering".

[DeusExMachina]

After reading the posts to this thread, I had to comment.  It seems to me that those espousing thumbs on the black keys, are not considering context at all. To practice C-major fingering for all keys is an exercize, not a suggestion to use it literally in the context of compositions. I find that there are instances where one may choose to play the thumb on a black key, yes. At those times it will be helpful to know this. Technique may evolve somewhat, but the human hand has not, and neither has the piano keyboard (except for custom made and a few exceptions). Pianists I've seen using a "flick" of the hand to move from one part of an arppegio to another seem to be doing that for lack of a better technique, not in place of a good technique. The limitations of writing prevents the true proof of any assertion, regarding performance. I would say that if you are going against convention, keep an open mind, as you may find one day that forays into new ideas sometimes brings one in a full circle. When practicing exercizes you have to know what the purpose is for the exercize. It is my impression that exercizes for the thumbs on black keys is to gain flexibility of the hand. I am in agreement with nyiregyhazi in that one should master conventional ideas before claiming to know better than them. At the same time, it is healthy to want to try new things. I don't want to sound like an old fogey, but students go through phases when they insist that are right, and hotly so. I did, and now so many years later I realize my haste. 

[fleetfingers]

I was the first to respond and now, seeing how the conversation has gone, I have a more thoughtful response.

First of all, is everyone even on the same page? Are we talking about arpeggios as exercises or playing arpeggios in music? If it is the latter, then of course context matters. Using the example of Chopin Op. 25 No. 1, that arpeggio at the end is awkward either way. After consideration of each possiblity, I ended up using the 2 on the black key and then crossing the thumb under, which is the finger marking on the score and also the "standard". But what about the rest of that piece? Most of the time, you are not crossing fingers, but stretching the hand to use C major fingering, right? Or, at least something similar to CM fingering - with the 1 and 5 fingers on black keys    .

Now you might say that if I had spent years doing my arpeggio exercises with the standard fingering, then those tricky measures at the end would not be so awkward for me to play. The way I see it - why train myself to readily play the exception, rather than the rule? My repertoire is quite limited, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I find myself playing Eb Major arpeggios in music with the 1 finger on a black key more often than not.

I make up my own technical exercises based on what I'm struggling with in my music. Years ago, I practiced arpeggios but only played one octave at a time - up and down - then on to the next key. I did it that way, because that's how it was in the music! Forgive my ignorance, but when I first responded to this thread, I was thinking one octave only. If I were to play more than one octave, then yes, I would probably use the "standard" fingering. So, if we are talking about arpeggios as exercises (and those exercises extend beyond one octave), then I change my answer. If anybody cares. 

[nyiregyhazi]

"After consideration of each possiblity, I ended up using the 2 on the black key and then crossing the thumb under, which is the finger marking on the score and also the "standard". But what about the rest of that piece? Most of the time, you are not crossing fingers, but stretching the hand to use C major fingering, right? Or, at least something similar to CM fingering - with the 1 and 5 fingers on black keys    ."

But there's no passing of the thumb. Why would that be in any way unusual? It's just a matter of spreading notes out in a single position.  When people refer to a supposed "rule" about thumbs on black keys, they usually fail to appreciate that this semi-rule is specifically intended to apply to thumb passing. It has virtually no relevance at all, outside of this context. Elsewhere, the rule simply does not exist- except for perhaps a small handful of misguided pedants.

"Now you might say that if I had spent years doing my arpeggio exercises with the standard fingering, then those tricky measures at the end would not be so awkward for me to play. The way I see it - why train myself to readily play the exception, rather than the rule? My repertoire is quite limited, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I find myself playing Eb Major arpeggios in music with the 1 finger on a black key more often than not."

What exception? This is no exception. Not by a long shot. It might seem that way if you're in the habit of using the C major fingering. But if you've ever had to play an E flat major arpeggio starting on G, then the supposed "exception" is actually the only fingering realistically available. So you'll be left having to learn extra fingerings where one will not only suffice but offer better legato and easier thumb passings to start with. I don't wish to sound rude, but if you are not familiar with this standard arpeggio fingering, it can only be viewed as a limitation.

"Forgive my ignorance, but when I first responded to this thread, I was thinking one octave only. If I were to play more than one octave, then yes, I would probably use the "standard" fingering. So, if we are talking about arpeggios as exercises (and those exercises extend beyond one octave), then I change my answer. If anybody cares.  "

I don't think anyone was ever referring to anything that fails to involve passing of the thumb. Applying standard fingering would simply be absurd here, as it would turn a single hand-position into two for no good reason. It's not "standard" by any means, in such situations. For a single position within an octave, it almost goes without saying that you'd have the thumb at the bottom and the 5th finger at the top. It's when you have to pass the thumb that different issues dictate fingering.

[DeusExMachina]

 I agree with you, nyiregyhazi. It is always a good idea to master that which you wish to deviate from first.

The exercizes mentioned are not to be taken literally, although there are instances where one might choose to use a thumb on a black key, for sure.

Those exercises, IMO, are for greater flexibility of the hand. 

[keyboardclass]

The exercizes mentioned are not to be taken literally, although there are instances where one might choose to use a thumb on a black key, for sure.

But after you've trained your reflexes to the point where the thumb only lands on a black note with great reluctance - what then?

Those exercises, IMO, are for greater flexibility of the hand. 

Surely that's greater flexibility of the thumb?

[fleetfingers]

But there's no passing of the thumb.

That was my point. You suggested we all look at a piece of music (Chopin Op. 25 No. 1) to understand how important it is to learn the standard fingering for arpeggios. But, in six pages of music, there is one small section at the end when the pianist is required to pass the thumb. So, at least in this example, avoiding the 1 finger on a black key is indeed the exception.

if you've ever had to play an E flat major arpeggio starting on G, then the supposed "exception" is actually the only fingering realistically available.

This is where I'm getting confused. If I am reading music and see that an arpeggio starts on G, I will use my first finger automatically; followed by 235, which is C major fingering. To me, it does not matter what chord is being inverted, as far as fingering goes. It could be G Bb Eb G or G B D G or G C E G - if I am not crossing the thumb, I will use fingers 1235 or 1245 in all cases, no matter what key it's in. That is my line of thinking when someone asks about using the same fingering for arpeggios in all keys.

Maybe you are talking about using the same fingers on certain notes of a chord, even when it is inverted. If that is your line of thinking, then perhaps we are not in disagreement about fingering after all. My only disagreement would be regarding the value of doing arpeggios as exercises when thumb-crossing is involved. I think that stretching out the hand to play an arpeggio occurs more often in music. In that sense, I can understand the OP's frustration with what his teacher insists he practice.

[lostinidlewonder]

First of all, is everyone even on the same page? Are we talking about arpeggios as exercises or playing arpeggios in music? If it is the latter, then of course context matters.....

This answers everything for this thread, it seems that some are trying to combine both together which is just silliness.


As a general rule however we can say that if the thumb is on a black note the little finger or end of the arpeggio should be also a black. But this is not away the case and there are pieces where we have different colors at the min and max point of our hand.

If for example we played ascending in RH BbCEGC you of course would play the Bb without the thumb. But if you played a passage which moved the min point on the RH such as Bb CEGEC  A CEGEC etc, you would not think about using anything but the thumb on the min points.

We can go about describing hundreds of other combinations and situations but it becomes useless. It is like listing off all combinations to a lotto selection (although not so vast), but if you know what tools there are and have a given situation you can solve your problem without having to tiresomely list out combinations you MIGHT encounter.

To the OP, if your teacher is giving you fingering that you do not like that doesn't matter. It is a tool that you should be able to master at least, you should realize that you do not have to use it in EVERYTHING you do but you may come across pieces which demand such fingering and you will already have some experience with doing this. 

[nyiregyhazi]

"That was my point. You suggested we all look at a piece of music (Chopin Op. 25 No. 1) to understand how important it is to learn the standard fingering for arpeggios. But, in six pages of music, there is one small section at the end when the pianist is required to pass the thumb. So, at least in this example, avoiding the 1 finger on a black key is indeed the exception."

No rule about the thumb on black notes exists in the first place- unless in reference to thumb passing. People who believe such a rule exists anywhere else have generally misunderstood the rules. I already mentioned this in my last post- so I don't see why you are speaking as if any such rules exists.. The number of ignorant pedants who would actually advise this mythical "rule" outside of thumb passing is minimal. When anyone thinks such a rule exists, it's usually because somebody was giving perfectly sound advice in a specific context- that was misinterpreted as applying to everything. Sadly there may be a small number who preach this misinterpretation, but most of the time what we hear is a strawman argument against a rule that is only supposed to apply to thumb passing.

The opening of the Etude is not an "exception" to the rule- as the thing about thumbs on black notes just doesn't have the slightest relevance to anything but thumb passing. Neither does arpeggio fingering.

"This is where I'm getting confused. If I am reading music and see that an arpeggio starts on G, I will use my first finger automatically; followed by 235, which is C major fingering. To me, it does not matter what chord is being inverted, as far as fingering goes. It could be G Bb Eb G or G B D G or G C E G - if I am not crossing the thumb, I will use fingers 1235 or 1245 in all cases, no matter what key it's in. That is my line of thinking when someone asks about using the same fingering for arpeggios in all keys."


This is based on the definition of "arpeggio". Strictly speaking, you're not using the word itself wrongly. But to talk of a "standard" or "official" (those aren't intended as literal quotes, but I believe you or the original poster used a similar expression?) arpeggio fingering for a very small arpeggiation that can be covered in a single hand position (withoutpassing of the thumb) is very misleading. There is no standard fingering for such a situation. The standard fingering is to cover it in one position. It's nothing to do with C major or any other key. It's to do with the fact that it's obviously easier to cover notes which fits in one position without needless thumb passing.

While such situations indeed represent an "arpeggiation" of a harmony, when anyone talks of a standard arpeggio fingering they are referring to that which enables easy passing of the thumb where needed. This is the ONLY time such fingerings are regarded as standard.

"My only disagreement would be regarding the value of doing arpeggios as exercises when thumb-crossing is involved. I think that stretching out the hand to play an arpeggio occurs more often in music."

Personally I practise this via "broken chords", in a separate context. Again it wouldn't strictly be wrong to say this is a type of arpeggiation, but the terms are rather widely used in a totally separate context- especially when fingering is being referred to. I'd refer to broken chord fingering if you are talking about one octave- as it will save a lot of confusion.
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[danhuyle]

One of the teachers I learned from told me to use finger 3 when descending the c major, a minor, f major etc. root position chords. You use finger 4 on the way up, and finger 3 on the way down.

Then with chromatic scales, with your right hand, on notes g, ab, a, Bb, use finger 1,2,3,4 respectively instead of 1,3,1,3 ascending and descending.

With Chopin Etudes, or any other piece with arpeggios, it's just the standard arpeggio fingering with some exceptions depending on the piece

[pianoplayjl]

I usually alter my fingering for every arpeggio/inversion to suit my hands and my it faster. I usually don't follow what is said in the scale books.

[rmbarbosa]

As for scales, there`s a traditional fingering with the 2º finger in the first note if this one is a black key. But now, namely when one plays more modern compositions, scales and harps may be played 1-2-3-5 or 1-2-4-5.
In terms of technique development, to play all scales and harps like for C major is very useful, I think. The rule of the 2º finger is from Clementi time, I think. But I dont know if I`m wrong...
Best wishes
Rui

[nyiregyhazi]

As for scales, there`s a traditional fingering with the 2º finger in the first note if this one is a black key. But now, namely when one plays more modern compositions, scales and harps may be played 1-2-3-5 or 1-2-4-5.

? I presume your're referring to arpeggios? But this is not anything modern. The traditional fingerings are based on these patterns too, when you judge from the thumbs. Alternatively, if you're meaning to suggest that this fingering would originate from the black note in B flat major say, what are these modern compositions? For a start, most modern composers rarely use standard triads and I don't recall ever seeing a composer specifically requesting the thumb on the black note in standard arpeggio figurations (modern or old).