Rach 2 after the chords

[vmishka]

Now that we have decided how to play the opening chords in Rach 2 in another thread, I would appreciate it if those who have performed this work would give their opinions/advice on how to handle the rhythm in the "arpeggiated" section which follows (until the rhythm clearly becomes 4 triplets and 3 against 2).

If we think about it in terms of 4 quarter notes to a measure, how should one "count" and "inflect" the piano part, when Rachmaninoff writes 8 and then 9 notes to 2 quarter notes?

Are all of the "8th notes" exactly equal so that 17 vs 4 works out to 4.25 notes to the quarter and the orchestra's 2nd and 4th quarter notes fall in between piano notes, or:

Are the piano notes grouped and not exactly equal, for example, 4-5 ( five being the number of notes "taken" by the right hand)-3-5 for 17, (or perhaps 4-5-4-4), and 3-5-3-5 or 4-4-4-4 for 16?

When there are 13 notes instead of 16 or 17, are we in "triplets" with one quarter measure of 4 so that the orchestra's quarter note definitely coincides with a piano note at that point?

Although it may not matter exactly in performance (perhaps just emphasizing the two notes on the beat in the piano), it sure would make it easier for me to know how to practice slowly and get the rhythm "correct".

Thank you for your help in understanding this.

[nyiregyhazi]

Now that we have decided how to play the opening chords in Rach 2 in another thread, I would appreciate it if those who have performed this work would give their opinions/advice on how to handle the rhythm in the "arpeggiated" section which follows (until the rhythm clearly becomes 4 triplets and 3 against 2).

If we think about it in terms of 4 quarter notes to a measure, how should one "count" and "inflect" the piano part, when Rachmaninoff writes 8 and then 9 notes to 2 quarter notes?

Are all of the "8th notes" exactly equal so that 17 vs 4 works out to 4.25 notes to the quarter and the orchestra's 2nd and 4th quarter notes fall in between piano notes, or:

Are the piano notes grouped and not exactly equal, for example, 4-5 ( five being the number of notes "taken" by the right hand)-3-5 for 17, (or perhaps 4-5-4-4), and 3-5-3-5 or 4-4-4-4 for 16?

When there are 13 notes instead of 16 or 17, are we in "triplets" with one quarter measure of 4 so that the orchestra's quarter note definitely coincides with a piano note at that point?

Although it may not matter exactly in performance (perhaps just emphasizing the two notes on the beat in the piano), it sure would make it easier for me to know how to practice slowly and get the rhythm "correct".

Thank you for your help in understanding this.

It scarcely matters. Just bring out the descending seconds and fit whatever number of notes within each minim. Personally I felt the 9s as a 5+4 but not necessarily in terms of having different lengths.

[retrouvailles]

I really think that this should be the least of your worries when playing a piece like this. There are more important matters of practice and performance to deal with in this piece. If little sections like this give you issues, perhaps you aren't ready for this piece.

[vmishka]

Thank you, nyiregyhazi, for giving your opinion/advice.

Retrouvailles: Your answer (and others like yours that we see, unfortunately, all too often) is not the least bit helpful. I take it that you haven't a clue yourself as to how to group the piano notes and which notes in the piano part fall on the 2nd and 4th quarter notes of the orchestra part. In recordings, it is often difficult to make it out. The notes are fast and the sound, other than the notes on the beat, is often "hidden" by the orchestra playing the melody.

I apologize if I am not a good enough pianist for you and that I struggle with things that are simple for you. Polyrythms (and similar topics) are obviously not my strong point. However, I will persevere and play such pieces. I am not afraid to ask questions and to keep looking for people who have logical answers.

It is too bad that if it is so simple for you, you cannot explain it or, it is beneath you to explain it. I am quite a bit older than you (almost 3 times your age) and I strive to be an educator. There are lots of people who believe that there is no such thing as a dumb question. Perhaps, if my question annoys you, you shouldn't be wasting your time posting.

[nyiregyhazi]

Retrouvailles: Your answer (and others like yours that we see, unfortunately, all too often) is not the least bit helpful. I take it that you haven't a clue yourself as to how to group the piano notes and which notes in the piano part fall on the 2nd and 4th quarter notes of the orchestra part. In recordings, it is often difficult to make it out. The notes are fast and the sound, other than the notes on the beat, is often "hidden" by the orchestra playing the melody.

While I certainly wouldn't phrase it as he did, I do think he had a point. To be honest, you shouldn't even be faintly concerned about which notes fall on the 2nd and 4th crotchets. It's not the style of writing where this should be any issue. It's just two clear arrivals on the bass and a flow of notes between. I'd neither think of each minim as containing two separate groups of notes of slightly differing lengths, nor of every note as necessarily being completely equal. If you have to think about it, the result may sound laboured and unnatural. While I wouldn't wish to speculate about whether you're ready or not, this section does need to be something where, rhythmically speaking, your only concern is to land the bass notes on the minims. Other than that you need to "just play". You don't necessarily need to even be aware how many notes are in each half-bar.

[werq34ac]

As for the thread about the opening chords, NO ONE ANSWERED MY QUESTION ON TEMPO!

But answering this thread, nyiregyhazi is right, what matters is the bass notes and the flurry of notes that follow. The piano writing is in two, so you should feel it in two. As for the orchestra, you are accompanying them but it doesn't matter where the notes fall in between the 1st and 3rd beats as long as they are continuous. It's majestic, but not march-like.

Feel it in two, not 4.

[retrouvailles]

Perhaps I should have been a bit less frank and a bit more descriptive as to what I was getting to. I agree with what has been said before, in that the exact rhythm of the notes really is insignificant. Just think of the measures as having two beats and trying to cram all of the individual notes into the beat. The exact placement of these notes does not matter, and the most important note to bring out is the bass note. Everything else is just a gesture. To practice, I would just try to make each group of notes even and play without pedal at first, at about half tempo. I agree that in the end, you should "just play".

If you don't like the tone of my comments, that's your prerogative. I think I had a point in my original post, anyhow.

[vmishka]

Thank you, everyone, for your suggestions. Retrouvailles: Although the tone of your first comment obviously did bother me, I appreciate from the second post that you are trying to be helpful.

I will never get the chance to play this with an orchestra. I will either have to fit my piano part with an MMO recording, or generate the orchestra part entirely through MIDI, after learning the piece. I also come from a scientific background and feel more comfortable "precisely placing the notes in my mind". However, I do appreciate that this accompaniment to the orchestra is just a gesture and that the orchestra may play the melody with rubato, anyway.

[keyboardkat]

It helps to remember that Rachmaninoff was a huge man, 6'4", with enormous hands that could take at least a 12th, perhaps a 14th.   He could sit down and improvise this marvelous stuff.  A lot of his textures are perhaps overly rich with notes, some of them unnecessary, as he himself admitted.
It isn't that you need to hear every single note with Rachmaninoff's music.   It is the overall effect created by all the notes.  That is what you should hear.   This is borne out by the fact that, while Rachmaninoff used the Steinway in America, in his villa in Switzerland he had a Bluthner and a Bechstein.  These instruments had a more mellow, less pointed tone than what we may be used to in America.

[werq34ac]

Like I said, it should sound like a flurry of notes with the bass notes falling on beats 1 and 3

[nyiregyhazi]

Like I said, it should sound like a flurry of notes with the bass notes falling on beats 1 and 3

Not just a flurry though. The chromatic note and resolution (a descending 2nd) should always be audible, otherwise Rachmaninoff might as well have written a pure and (more boring) arpeggiation of a single harmony.

[retrouvailles]

Like I said, it should sound like a flurry of notes with the bass notes falling on beats 1 and 3

I think most conductors would conduct it in 2, however.