Different Key than indicated in Key Signature

[quirky]

I currently have to study and play the Bach Chorale "So gibst su nun, mein Jesu, gute Nacht" and the studying element is proving tricky. The key signature of this chorale is a B flat, whch would suggest that the key is F Major or D Minor. However, the profusion of E flat and F sharp accidentals make the piece sound and look like it is in G Minor. So basically, is the chorale in G Minor? Is it possible to have a piece in a key that is different from that which is indicated by the key signature?

[cudo]

"So gibst du nun, mein Jesu, gute Nacht", BWV 412 from Johann Sebastian Bach is written in the key of G-Dorian. Therefore is only 1 flat!

[keypeg]

Quirky, when you write "the key signature is Bb", then people think you are saying that it is the key signature of Bb major, which has two flats.  You are trying to say that it has one flat which is on B of course (so Bb).

[perfect_pitch]

Quirky, when you write "the key signature is Bb", then people think you are saying that it is the key signature of Bb major, which has two flats. 

I didn't think that - there's a very clear distinction between 'Key signature' and 'Key'... don't assume that you know what we're thinking. I understood Quirky very clearly... I just never heard of the piece before.

[keypeg]

I didn't think that - there's a very clear distinction between 'Key signature' and 'Key'... don't assume that you know what we're thinking. I understood Quirky very clearly... I just never heard of the piece before.

Cudo protested that there is only one flat.  So I read the original post to see why.  The minute I saw the wording, that seemed to be the reason.  Secondly, I always hear "This is in the key of Bb" which means it has two flats, and it indicates key signature.

[perfect_pitch]

Okay - just don't get it confused...

[keypeg]

I believe that we say "The key signature has a B flat."  When people say that it is B flat, then it is commonly understood to mean the key signature of B flat, but you would then ask "B flat major or minor?"  In any case, the reason I brought it up is because the first person insisted on it having only one flat, which told me right away that this person read the original post as indicating a key, and not which note was flatted.

[cudo]

Don't make it to complicated.

As I said before, "So gibst du nun, mein Jesu, gute Nacht", BWV 412 from Johann Sebastian Bach is written in the key of G-Dorian.

For most people who don't know about modalities the print looks AND sounds like it would be written in the key of Bb or G Minor, which both have 2 flats as accidentals. But it is not! It is in the modality of G Dorian!

Lets have a look!
www.cisum.info/bwv412a.jpg
www.cisum.info/bwv412b.jpg
www.cisum.info/bwv412c.jpg
  
I hope it is clear now for everybody.
  

[pianowolfi]

Yes it's clear, except the leading note F#, of course. So it's not pure Dorian. Not every composition/variation/transition between styles etc. fits into a scheme.

[nyiregyhazi]

I believe that we say "The key signature has a B flat."  When people say that it is B flat, then it is commonly understood to mean the key signature of B flat, but you would then ask "B flat major or minor?"  In any case, the reason I brought it up is because the first person insisted on it having only one flat, which told me right away that this person read the original post as indicating a key, and not which note was flatted.

I don't think that's strictly accurate. I've always understood anyone saying "the key signature is  B flat/ a B flat" as meaning the key signature contains a B flat and would never even imagine any other meaning. If they said that the key signature is "OF" b flat, I'd possibly assume they might be referring to B flat major- but that word would be essential. Otherwise I would never imagine such a meaning to be intended- except in the unlikely event that the person saying it did not understand what the difference between a "key" and a "key signature" is. I frequently say things like "the key signature is B flat". I don't there's anything unusual about that. Saying "the key is b flat" suggests the key signature of b flat. However, if a person cites a key signature I naturally presume that the key signature is exactly what they are referring to. I don't believe that it's in any way more correct to say "has".

[keypeg]

Ok, I learned something.  Thanks.

[perfect_pitch]

I don't think that's strictly accurate. I've always understood anyone saying "the key signature is  B flat/ a B flat" as meaning the key signature contains a B flat and would never even imagine any other meaning. If they said that the key signature is "OF" b flat, I'd possibly assume they might be referring to B flat major- but that word would be essential. Otherwise I would never imagine such a meaning to be intended- except in the unlikely event that the person saying it did not understand what the difference between a "key" and a "key signature" is. I frequently say things like "the key signature is B flat". I don't there's anything unusual about that. Saying "the key is b flat" suggests the key signature of b flat. However, if a person cites a key signature I naturally presume that the key signature is exactly what they are referring to. I don't believe that it's in any way more correct to say "has".

Exactly... The only reason I wanted to make it clear, is because I used to be a classroom music teacher. You've got to be careful how you explain things to teenagers... so thats why I wanted to show why I think it was misinterpreted.