Chopin's Ballade No.1

[vincentl]

Hello everybody. As some of you may know, I am a self-taught pianist so my question about Chopin's Ballade No.1 is, how do I know if I can learn it without developing bad habits or ruining the piece in the future for me? Chopin's Ballades(if that is the plural form of Ballade) have become my favorite pieces to listen to and attempt to play, but I don't exactly know how to gauge my capabilities since I don't have a teacher.

The most difficult pieces I can play would be, Chopin's Nocturne Op. 9 no. 2 and Marche Funebre (Difficulty according to a list I found on the internet). So is it too soon to start attempting to learn Chopin's Ballade No. 1? I can play it very slowly up to 3 pages, but painfully slow when I get to the more technical parts of it. So slow that it is difficult to recognize the piece.

[lorditachijr]

I love your enthusiasm about learning such a great piece of music, but I must discourage it for now. The Nocturne and the Funeral March aren't as difficult as the Ballade. If you can play those pieces well and you have a good technique, I think you are probably 1-3 years (a rough estimate) of hard work away from the Ballade WITH A TEACHER. Without a teacher, I don't think progress would be nearly as quick. If you really have a burning passion to learn this piece right now, go for it. But don't make it a main project. Keep it on the side while you are also working on some other pieces that are more on your level. The quickest way for you to reach this level of literature is by taking lessons from a good teacher. If that isn't an option, don't let it discourage you. Still play it, but don't devote all your time to it. Right now, I don't believe you could get it to a polished performance level. Of course I have never heard you play and don't have any idea what your level actually is. This is just my 2 cents.

[danhuyle]

Go to a teacher to develop piano skills like pedaling, phrasing and so forth. Just go with the pieces your teacher assigns, then you can apply what you learned from those pieces your teacher taught you.

Chopin Ballades is a set of pieces that can be self-learned and if you want to perform at a competition, then go to a teacher for that.

[kellyc]

I found a great prerequisite to the Ballades where the Chopin Waltz's. I know that from a technical standpoint they are much easier, but they allow you to concentrate on the Melody which is ever so important in the Ballades. Become a good Chopin waltz player first. There is plenty there to fill your plate. 

Kelly

[vincentl]

Thank you for the replies everyone!

Alright then, I've decided to stick with the pieces that I am more comfortable with for now, I will try to study Chopin's waltzes first. I will try to find a teacher, but I just don't have the time and money. (If you see my other post I'm already planning to teach music to other people, but only how much I know well)

After reading all your posts, I believe that tackling the Ballade No.1 and focusing on it solely, might be a bad idea after all. I do feel like I am improving better, although slowly, from Bach and Mozart rather than trying to play something beyond my level. I also fear sounding mechanical if I force myself to play something that is beyond my level. Anyway, thanks again everyone.

[jaggens]

Hi Vincentl,

yes, this is a very nice piece and not the easiest to play.
Taking too difficult pieces is often something that could make you regret it later. If the temptation to play it already in a too high tempo and try out how it really sounds wins the self control it could cause damage.

What is the most important by my opinion is practising in a right and careful way with attention and intellect. Does not matter if you practise an easy piece or a difficult piece. If you practise it in a right way it will not harm you. It just takes a very long time.   

If you practise easy pieces in a wrong way it will create bad habits as well.

There are many different ways how to play and use piano technique. None of them is perfect. But some work much better than others and are in harmony with your body and the mechanism of a piano.

I wish you a great piano journey and good and successful choices.
Jaak


P.S. If you are interested in improving piano technique you could join my free online piano course. Maybe it can give you some insight or help.

[scott13]

A good indication for the 1st Ballade is spend 3-4 weeks on the Coda only (last 2 pages). If you can get this section ACCURATE to 60 - 70% tempo you can learn the rest of the work without many problems. The key point here is accuracy, speed will come from very slow accurate practice of this section.

I say this as for me, this was the most technically difficult passage and spending a solid month on only these 2 pages meant approaching the rest of the piece didn't feel like such a huge obstacle anymore.

[werq34ac]

To be honest, I don't think you are anywhere near ready to play this monstrous piece.
The ballades are perhaps the epitome of Chopin's technical and musical mastery of the piano. They contain the elegance of the waltzes, the technical brilliance of the etudes, the capriciousness of the scherzos, the beautiful melodies seen in the nocturnes, the grandness of the polonaises all within the span of 10 minutes give or take a few. If your only experience with Chopin is the Funeral March and the 2nd nocturne, then you probably need at least 2-4 years WITH a teacher to be able to give this piece somewhat justice.

As for the musical aspect, without a teacher I really do not see how you can play this. I suppose you could develop your technique but really without a teacher, all you are going to end up doing is butchering this piece. Chopin requires certain musical subtleties. Bringing out the melody is probably 5% of all the musical challenges presented by the ballades. You have your articulation, pedaling, voicing, balance, tone, color, dynamics, structure, etc. etc. etc. to take care of. Every note you must keep these things in mind.

I would strongly advise against playing this piece until you have studied
at least 1-2 more nocturnes (to develop expressiveness and tone)
3-4 etudes (you definitely need the technique)
1-2 waltzes, these aren't exactly necessary, but if you can't play gracefully yet, start with these
maybe 1 polonaise for extra technique and boldness

And if you don't want to butcher the piece, a teacher is absolutely necessary.

[vincentl]

Thank you for the advice everyone, I did decide to play different, easier pieces for now. But thanks to your replies, I have a better grasp on how to prepare myself for Chopin's Ballades. I will be very careful in learning this piece, I do not want to end up ruining it for me.

To be honest, I don't think you are anywhere near ready to play this monstrous piece.
The ballades are perhaps the epitome of Chopin's technical and musical mastery of the piano. They contain the elegance of the waltzes, the technical brilliance of the etudes, the capriciousness of the scherzos, the beautiful melodies seen in the nocturnes, the grandness of the polonaises all within the span of 10 minutes give or take a few. If your only experience with Chopin is the Funeral March and the 2nd nocturne, then you probably need at least 2-4 years WITH a teacher to be able to give this piece somewhat justice.

As for the musical aspect, without a teacher I really do not see how you can play this. I suppose you could develop your technique but really without a teacher, all you are going to end up doing is butchering this piece. Chopin requires certain musical subtleties. Bringing out the melody is probably 5% of all the musical challenges presented by the ballades. You have your articulation, pedaling, voicing, balance, tone, color, dynamics, structure, etc. etc. etc. to take care of. Every note you must keep these things in mind.

I would strongly advise against playing this piece until you have studied
at least 1-2 more nocturnes (to develop expressiveness and tone)
3-4 etudes (you definitely need the technique)
1-2 waltzes, these aren't exactly necessary, but if you can't play gracefully yet, start with these
maybe 1 polonaise for extra technique and boldness

And if you don't want to butcher the piece, a teacher is absolutely necessary.

Thank you for your detailed post werq34ac, I feel like somewhat guided in my preparation for Chopin's Ballade. Especially the prior pieces you suggested for me to learn first. As for a teacher, I happen to have found a promising place to learn under a teacher's supervision. I have also printed the pieces you suggested. Anyway, wish me luck and thanks again.

[bamba]

You could play 1-2 more nocturnes in order to develop expressiveness and tone in order to prepare for the ballade but then, you could also develop these directly by practicing the ballade.
You could play a couple of etudes to improve your technique (which is a pretty obscure goal in itself,) but then you could also improve it directly by playing the ballade.
You could play a polonaise in order to achieve "boldness" but then again, you could also aim to achieve that in the ballade.
Learning the ballade would probably become easier/faster after learning all of the above first,
but will also take a lot more time. Given that you really want to learn this piece, I see no reason to go around it...at least that's my personal view.

[werq34ac]

Obviously his previous repertoire is no where near the difficulty level of the ballade. True one could just skip all the groundwork for it and just work on the technique from that ballade, but what does one gain from such an endeavor? He will spend a ridiculous amount of time just learning the notes, and that time could be used to learn other, more easier, pieces. Great as the ballade may be, it still is only one work by Chopin, and there is only so much one can learn from it.

I'm talking about the big picture here, given his current level, it would take him about a year to just learn the notes, and even more time to refine the musical aspects. Or he could learn other Chopin pieces first, learn a great deal about the piano (much more than studying ONLY the ballade), and at the end of it all, BE ABLE TO PLAY THE BALLADE at a decent level.