Students who are too serious about music?

[m1469]

Do you think it's possible?  What would you do if you had a student who was "more serious" about music and the piano than you are?

[mcdiddy1]

I never met one. I wish I had a student like that. Would be super easy to teach I would imagine. Have you had one?

[quantum]

I guess it would depend on what is described as "serious."  If the student was more focused on the stigmatisims of academic banter as opposed to getting to the core of the music itself, I could see a challenge for the teacher. 

[cjp_piano]

What would you do if you had a student who was "more serious" about music and the piano than you are?

What do you mean by "more serious?" Do you mean they don't laugh or take anything lightly? Or do you mean they value it as extremely important? Or do you mean something else?

[m1469]

Or do you mean they value it as extremely important?

I think I mean this.  I had some things in mind when I started the thread, but I think I realized that what I am talking about would basically be a mismatch between student and teacher, not an 'absolutely' "too serious" student.    

[cjp_piano]

Well then that's strange, because a piano teacher should certainly value music as important!!

[m1469]

Well then that's strange, because a piano teacher should certainly value music as important!!

Certainly not all music teachers are teaching because they love/value music, or even because they love/value/want to be teaching!  Many individuals in many fields end up doing the work they are doing because that's just what they ended up with, and some people feel stuck with their occupation; music is certainly not exempt from this.  

[ethure]

I think it should be possible to happen..  but passion and attitude is easy to be infected, if I were a teacher, I'd do as best as I can to to fullfill the student's dream on music and piano, and if I feel unable to do that, I'd like to help find another teacher who is more suitable for the student. 

it's always good to see there's someone who is with a more serious attitude in learning, and that deserves to be carefully treasured and supported, rather than ruined.

[cjp_piano]

Certainly not all music teachers are teaching because they love/value music, or even because they love/value/want to be teaching!  Many individuals in many fields end up doing the work they are doing because that's just what they ended up with, and some people feel stuck with their occupation; music is certainly not exempt from this.  

So if the student values music more importantly than the teacher, maybe that student should find another teacher. Personally, I want to be inspired by my teacher, so I would not want a teacher who did not think it was important.

[keypeg]

Certainly not all music teachers are teaching because they love/value music, or even because they love/value/want to be teaching!  Many individuals in many fields end up doing the work they are doing because that's just what they ended up with, and some people feel stuck with their occupation; music is certainly not exempt from this.  

As a student music is very important and I take it quite seriously.  If you are a relative beginner, you cannot expect a teacher to get excited about the fact that D is between two black keys everywhere on the keyboard - which the poor fellow has had to teach for several decades.  But you can expect a professional attitude even on an off day that makes sure you get taught what you need.  The days it gets mutually exciting is a bonus.  I think that the music is exciting for the student, but often the student's progress is exciting for the teacher.  And then the D between the black keys is exciting too, since the teacher will know what that will give the student.

Of course you can also be "serious" in an academic intellectual way which sort of kills the music for the musician I imagine.

[m1469]

As a student music is very important and I take it quite seriously.  If you are a relative beginner, you cannot expect a teacher to get excited about the fact that D is between two black keys everywhere on the keyboard - which the poor fellow has had to teach for several decades.  But you can expect a professional attitude even on an off day that makes sure you get taught what you need.  The days it gets mutually exciting is a bonus.  I think that the music is exciting for the student, but often the student's progress is exciting for the teacher.  And then the D between the black keys is exciting too, since the teacher will know what that will give the student.

Of course you can also be "serious" in an academic intellectual way which sort of kills the music for the musician I imagine.

Yeah, I definitely still get excited when a student *actually* learns their white note names, especially if it's quickly and they just get it learned!

This thread started for me in thinking about somebody I know who loved music SO MUCH, loved piano SO MUCH, that I think it actually scared the teacher.  Teacher would comment about what a big responsibility that was, and even another friend would comment on behalf of the teacher about the same thing.  "You know, that's really a big responsibility" ... seemingly as though the student were doing something wrong.  Ever since then, you could say I haven't forgotten that.  I myself would not wish to scare teachers away by really living it in the deepest ways.

[nyiregyhazi]

This thread started for me in thinking about somebody I know who loved music SO MUCH, loved piano SO MUCH, that I think it actually scared the teacher.  Teacher would comment about what a big responsibility that was, and even another friend would comment on behalf of the teacher about the same thing.  "You know, that's really a big responsibility" ... seemingly as though the student were doing something wrong. 

? I don't see that as being implied at all. It shows that the teacher realises that when somebody is passionate about something, they deserve someone who will be genuinely useful to them. In no way whatsoever does that imply the student is doing something wrong. It reflects how important it is for the teacher to either be do something right, or help the student find someone else who will be good for them.

[m1469]

? I don't see that as being implied at all. It shows that the teacher realises that when somebody is passionate about something, they deserve someone who will be genuinely useful to them. In no way whatsoever does that imply the student is doing something wrong. It reflects how important it is for the teacher to either be do something right, or help the student find someone else who will be good for them.

Well, I appreciate your thoughts but you weren't there.  Even if I got it wrong though, what I really care about is not the past but rather the present, and I see through reflection that the present is in a good place regarding this.        

[nyiregyhazi]

Well, I appreciate your thoughts but you weren't there.  Even if I got it wrong though, what I really care about is not the past but rather the present, and I see through reflection that the present is in a good place regarding this.        

? Of course I wasn't there. I'm not talking about tone of voice. I'm talking about what is implied by such a statement. Why would anyone who recognises that it's a responsibility to teach someone of enthusiasm resent that? If a teacher seriously thought "God, not that student who actually cares about music again" every week, then it would be a ludicrous situation. I deeply struggle to believe that recognising responsibility might in any way imply such students to be a burden- except in the unlikely event that a teacher realises that a student deserves better but is too proud to tell them (if that can even be deemed "responsibility").

Regardless, I'm not ruling out that such a situation might have been the case. I'm pointing out that recognising responsibility in teaching someone with serious enthusiasm does not inherently suggest the student to be a burden. That just strikes me as a rather improbable interpretation of a perfectly natural sentiment.

[m1469]

? Of course I wasn't there. I'm not talking about tone of voice. I'm talking about what is implied by such a statement. Why would anyone who recognises that it's a responsibility to teach someone of enthusiasm resent that? If a teacher seriously thought "God, not that student who actually cares about music again" every week, then it would be a ludicrous situation. I deeply struggle to believe that recognising responsibility might in any way imply such students to be a burden- except in the unlikely event that a teacher realises that a student deserves better but is too proud to tell them (if that can even be deemed "responsibility").

Honestly, it doesn't matter because you weren't there and simply do not know the situation.  Personally, I can reason out a *thousand* different things regarding this case - but none of that really even matters.  

Regardless, I'm not ruling out that such a situation might have been the case. I'm pointing out that recognising responsibility in teaching someone with serious enthusiasm does not inherently suggest the student to be a burden. That just strikes me as a rather improbable interpretation of a perfectly natural sentiment.

Let me point out that "recognizing" responsibility and "taking" it are extremely, HUGELY, two very different things.  Just because a parent recognizes the HUGE responsibility in caring for a child does NOT mean they plan to take it, and it is not uncommon to run from it, even, so sorry, I'm not under some impression that this doesn't exist!  Simply stating that it exists (when perhaps the student had no idea in the first place that it "should" be recognized) can be a very nice "act" en lieu of actually taking it.  I see very clearly what it looks like and feels like when teachers are actually taking it.

Regardless, this is all that matters to me and all I want to know:  

I'm pointing out that recognising responsibility in teaching someone with serious enthusiasm does not inherently suggest the student to be a burden.

[nyiregyhazi]

"Honestly, it doesn't matter because you weren't there and simply do not know the situation.  Personally, I can reason out a *thousand* different things regarding this case - but none of that really even matters."

What are you being so defensive about? I am referring to situations in general. What motivation would there be for a teacher to resent a student for being enthusiastic? And if you want it to be specifically about this particular situation, rather than in general, what caused you to read it that way? I find such a possibility deeply troubling, from a teacher. What made you think this was the attitude on display- if not the perfectly natural comment about responsibility? Rather than point out that I wasn't there (as if that negates my right to speak about the general issues involved) why not expand upon the nature of the situation in a manner that is conducive to furthering the discussion?


  

[cjp_piano]

m1469 -

What exactly are you asking? Is the teacher you?

[m1469]

First of all, two recent decisions I have made in my life are that I do not talk about personal matters with individuals who do not acknowledge reasoning I have already put forth, and who do not have the decency to talk on those points with me, and instead stay only in one standpoint to encourage debate, and furthermore tell me how I am feeling when I am not feeling that way/and or they clearly don't recognize how I am actually feeling.  

Second of all, no, I am not the teacher (that I know of  ).

So, if you have a question for me and would like to acknowledge what I have actually mentioned and have pointed out as what actually matters to me, then please feel free to try again - if not, then I thank you for your participation within this thread as it has helped for me to come to better grasp some important points.  

[nyiregyhazi]

First of all, two recent decisions I have made in my life are that I do not talk about personal matters with individuals who do not acknowledge reasoning I have already put forth, and who do not have the decency to talk on those points with me, and instead stay only in one standpoint to encourage debate, and furthermore tell me how I am feeling when I am not feeling that way/and or they clearly don't recognize how I am actually feeling.  

Second of all, no, I am not the teacher (that I know of  ).

So, if you have a question for me and would like to acknowledge what I have actually mentioned and have pointed out as what actually matters to me, then please feel free to try again - if not, then I thank you for your participation within this thread as it has helped for me to come to better grasp some important points.  

This thread has been extremely cryptic from the start and I'm afraid this post only makes it more so. While you obviously understand what you are referring to in that post, I haven't got the first clue as to what any of it means. Obviously you have some kind of personal connection to this in some way that you have not disclosed, but it's very hard to be sensitive to that when everything is shrouded in total mystery and when it's impossible to put any of your comments into any kind of context. Not that I wish to sound unsympathetic, but I entered this thread to discuss the topic raised. It's all very well being judgemental about people's "decency"- but if nothing outside of that is revealed, there's no way to treat it as anything but a topic for discussion. If you don't establish a personal connection to the issues, there's no way for it to be regarded as anything other than the abstract debate it was presented as.

[m1469]

This thread has been extremely cryptic from the start and I'm afraid this post only makes it more so. While you obviously understand what you are referring to in that post, I haven't got the first clue as to what any of it means. Obviously you have some kind of personal connection to this in some way that you have not disclosed, but it's very hard to be sensitive to that when everything is shrouded in total mystery and when it's impossible to put any of your comments into any kind of context. Not that I wish to sound unsympathetic, but I entered this thread to discuss the topic raised. It's all very well being judgemental about people's "decency"- but if nothing outside of that is revealed, there's no way to treat it as anything but a topic for discussion. If you don't establish a personal connection to the issues, there's no way for it to be regarded as anything other than the abstract debate it was presented as.

Thank you for your participation in this thread, you are a very valuable customer.  Believe us, we appreciate your business.  Please stay on the line for the next available operator.  

Would you like to clarify how your post acknowledges the actually precise points I have brought up and what I have stated more than once as the most important part of it for me?  What, exactly, is your question of me as I don't see one in your post.  I am not aiming to establish sympathy, but rather mutually respectful grounds upon which a more personal discussion might take place.  I have revealed the pathway that works for me regarding that, and from my perspective you are choosing not to take it.  That communicates non-discussable territory for me and perhaps we are at an impasse.  

Secondly, just because I don't reveal details about how something is personally connected to me does not make it a cryptic subject altogether, nor does it make it inherently non-discussable.  So, again, if you could make your question a bit more precise, perhaps I could better assist you - operators are standing by.

To be fair, though, I perhaps should never have asked the question in the first place   .

[pianowolfi]

To be fair, though, I perhaps should never have asked the question in the first place   .

I don't think so, it's a very good question.

[nyiregyhazi]

"Would you like to clarify how your post acknowledges the actually precise points I have brought up and what I have stated more than once as the most important part of it for me?"

My point was that I had very little idea what point you were actually making.

"I have revealed the pathway that works for me regarding that, and from my perspective you are choosing not to take it.  That communicates non-discussable territory for me and perhaps we are at an impasse."

?  Again, I'm totally lost. Could you be specific? I'm not being willfully awkward. I genuinely have no idea what you are referring to.  Why all this vague innuendo? Every post gets more cryptic. Can you just be explicit about what you are referencing?

"Secondly, just because I don't reveal details about how something is personally connected to me does not make it a cryptic subject altogether, nor does it make it inherently non-discussable."

Indeed. That was the very point I made. It means we can discuss the topic as presented, but have no means of being sensitive towards that which has not been disclosed. What I am confused by is the cryptic post in which you accused people of failing to behave with "decency", based on a very general and vague reference to things that I could not personally make any sense of. As far as I could tell, it seemed that you were berating people for treating it as a discussion- rather than being sensitive about things we have no knowledge of?

[m1469]

As far as I could tell, it seemed that you were berating people for treating it as a discussion- rather than being sensitive about things we have no knowledge of?

This falls into the second category of what makes something non-discussable territory for me, as you are deciding how I feel without providing me any way to meet with you on mutually respectful grounds, all I can do is deny this or reveal something personal.  That is not a discussion.  As well as still not addressing my points from above regarding a teacher's sense of responsibility towards a student (falling into my first category of non-discussable territory).  

[nyiregyhazi]

This falls into the second category of what makes something non-discussable territory for me, as you are deciding how I feel without providing me any way to meet with you on mutually respectful grounds, all I can do is deny this or reveal something personal.  That is not a discussion.  As well as still not addressing my points from above regarding a teacher's sense of responsibility towards a student (falling into my first category of non-discussable territory).  

I used a question mark to specifically illustrate that it was inquistive- as opposed to statement of fact. I'm afraid I have no idea how you feel. As I already explained, I could not make any sense of what you were actually alluding to in your post.

Regarding the responsibility issue, thank you for clarifying. I did not follow up on that as it struck me as a minor grammatical issue that was not at the heart of the discussion. I didn't see what real relevance it had. If you urgently need a follow-up on this side issue- well, I had never differentiated between taking and feeling responsibility. My point did not hang upon that distinction. My point was that reference to responsibility does not imply that the teacher sees the student as a burden (especially as awareness of responsibility is absolutely natural in such situations). That is not affected by whether responsibility is taken or merely felt. In fact, responsibility could be either taken or felt (or both) regardless of whether the student were viewed as a burden or not. So it doesn't have any bearing on my point whatsoever.

Regarding questions, you did not follow up on any of mine about why you felt this person saw the student as a burden- if it was not actually based on the quote about responsibility that you cited alongside the belief.

[keypeg]

 Teacher would comment about what a big responsibility that was, and even another friend would comment on behalf of the teacher about the same thing.  "You know, that's really a big responsibility" ... seemingly as though the student were doing something wrong. 

I'm thinking that the teacher might be scared of the responsibility, but not think that the student was doing something wrong.  I could see, however, that the teacher might be scared of hurting a student who cares so deeply.

[Bob]

If the student is more serioius than the teacher, I would say the student needs to find a new teacher.

Although I'm thinking would have to actually do something and not "be serious" about it.  The student would have to back it up with their practicing.  In that case I'm picturing a student going above and beyond what the teacher is expecting and the teacher, not being serioius, isn't doing enough planning or isn't prepared for a student doing everything they say to do.

[m1469]

I'm thinking that the teacher might be scared of the responsibility, but not think that the student was doing something wrong.  I could see, however, that the teacher might be scared of hurting a student who cares so deeply.

I trust my teachers (and want to trust them) deeply, and I feel that if I am going to live my deepest musician in my life, I must be able to do this.