Beethoven Sonata No. 14 - Op. 27 No. 2 Question

[nitroglycerin]

Hi! The question is: should I play WITH or WITHOUT pedal the first movement? Because in the beginning, it says: Si deve suonare ... e senza sordino. This means without the dampers, or without the damper pedal? Or does this mean the same thing? Thanks.

[pianowolfi]

Without the dampers = with pedal. The pedal lifts the dampers.
According to Czerny the pedal needs to be changed at every bass note (Btw change the pedal=lift the pedal and press it down again, immediately). And according to Czerny Beethoven played the whole movement also with the "una corda" pedal, nowadays the left pedal, except around Measures 35/36.

[nitroglycerin]

Thank you very much. Now I understand. All the best!

[indianajo]

Thanks. When I played a student folio copy of movement 1 in 1961, it had pedal markings at the chord changes, ie measure lines. When I got the Penguin-Schenker Sonata books in 1982, to start working on mvt 2&3, I saw the "senza sordini" marking and quit using the right pedal.  Good for legato finger training, but the piece is  not nearly as spooky  with the pedal up. 

[pianowolfi]

I am glad it helped.
This is one of the cases that show clearly the importance of getting an idea about the history of piano and piano playing in general. Beethoven lived in the time where the pedal was invented, so he used the old way of "pedal marks" in his so called Moonlight Sonata, which were "senza sordino" and "con sordino" (like in the third movement, where it's pretty obvious) because there was no pedal, there was a knee lever who lifted the dampers.

Beethoven's autograph:

https://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=15248&template=dokseite_digitales_archiv_en&_eid=&_ug=Pieces%20for%20two%20hands&_werkid=27&_dokid=wm20&_opus=op.%2027&_mid=Works%20by%20Ludwig%20van%20Beethoven&suchparameter=&_sucheinstieg=&_seite=1-11

You see that scribble at the end of the first line, below the sf? That reads "senza sordino" and the scribble at the beginning of the second line reads "con sordino" etc.

Just as a sidemark: Not one single edition mentions that the "agitato" is distinctly separated from the "presto" ! Every edition just says "Presto agitato" and in my book this is clearly wrong. It makes a difference if the "agitato" is part of the tempo mark or if it's a separate agogic remark!

[ramseytheii]

I am glad it helped.
This is one of the cases that show clearly the importance of getting an idea about the history of piano and piano playing in general. Beethoven lived in the time where the pedal was invented, so he used the old way of "pedal marks" in his so called Moonlight Sonata, which were "senza sordino" and "con sordino" (like in the third movement, where it's pretty obvious) because there was no pedal, there was a knee lever who lifted the dampers.

I have to dispute the historical description, because knee levers were common pedals in the day in Mozart and Haydn, but Beethoven had plenty of pianos to choose from that had multiple foot pedals, in fact more than we have today.  I myself have played on a Broadwood from the very early 19th century that had 5 pedals, including a "bassoon" pedal and a tambourine pedal, all operated by the foot.

I agree that this is a case where knowledge of the context is important - though I think those cases are rare in number.

Walter Ramsey

[richterfan1]

i would do it with pedal, its much "better"

[nitroglycerin]

I am glad it helped.
This is one of the cases that show clearly the importance of getting an idea about the history of piano and piano playing in general. Beethoven lived in the time where the pedal was invented, so he used the old way of "pedal marks" in his so called Moonlight Sonata, which were "senza sordino" and "con sordino" (like in the third movement, where it's pretty obvious) because there was no pedal, there was a knee lever who lifted the dampers.

Beethoven's autograph:

https://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=15248&template=dokseite_digitales_archiv_en&_eid=&_ug=Pieces%20for%20two%20hands&_werkid=27&_dokid=wm20&_opus=op.%2027&_mid=Works%20by%20Ludwig%20van%20Beethoven&suchparameter=&_sucheinstieg=&_seite=1-11

You see that scribble at the end of the first line, below the sf? That reads "senza sordino" and the scribble at the beginning of the second line reads "con sordino" etc.

Just as a sidemark: Not one single edition mentions that the "agitato" is distinctly separated from the "presto" ! Every edition just says "Presto agitato" and in my book this is clearly wrong. It makes a difference if the "agitato" is part of the tempo mark or if it's a separate agogic remark!

Thank you very much again, for making it that clear, and also for noticing the Presto/agitato thing. I think that because of this remark I will already play it differently.

[pianowolfi]

I have to dispute the historical description, because knee levers were common pedals in the day in Mozart and Haydn, but Beethoven had plenty of pianos to choose from that had multiple foot pedals, in fact more than we have today.  I myself have played on a Broadwood from the very early 19th century that had 5 pedals, including a "bassoon" pedal and a tambourine pedal, all operated by the foot.

Walter Ramsey

Yes of course you're right. What I meant though is that Beethoven lived in a transitional period and the old way of notating "pedal marks" was still very common. Remains of the old times shine through even in such a thing as his naming of the op. 106 as "Große Sonate für das Hammerklavier" even though the "Hammerklavier" was already very established.

[barenboim]

senza sordino means using NO pedal in that movements!
In italian senza means no, hope this will help lot of pianist because this is one of the most reapeated errors.

[pianowolfi]

senza sordino means using NO pedal in that movements!
In italian senza means no, hope this will help lot of pianist because this is one of the most reapeated errors.

Sorry but you are as wrong as can be. "Senza sordini" means "without the dampers", which means that you have to lift the dampers off the strings, which happens of course through using the right pedal.

[musicus]

The score does not say "senza sordini" but rather "senza sordino." Two different things.

[j_menz]

The score does not say "senza sordini" but rather "senza sordino." Two different things.

Apart from one being singular and the other being plural, I fail to see how it makes any difference. I also fail to see why you thought it useful to revive a year and a half old post to say something so pointless.

[birba]

Sorry but you are as wrong as can be. "Senza sordini" means "without the dampers", which means that you have to lift the dampers off the strings, which happens of course through using the right pedal.

i can't believe barenboim would have said such a thing.  There must be something out of context.  Senza sordino means leaving the strings to vibrate.  Ergo, WITH pedal.

[ade16]

I agree with most of the posts including the last one. It is very easy to draw a line under this and move on. Beethoven was never ambiguous with his directions for pedalling, fingerings, phrasing or indeed anything else with regard to performance, whether piano music, chamber music, orchestral, choral etc. He was one of the most meticulous and fastidious composers and performers in history. There is no doubt at all that in his piano music, certainly from Op.26 onwards he is very, very clear and precise as to where the pedal is required and where it is not. (Even allowing for changes and developments with piano design over time. That is opening another can of worms for debate!)

Some editors do confuse matters, but always look at Beethoven's own original directions. A good edition will always make it clear as to those directions which are those of the composer, and those which are suggestions by the editor.

Anyway, I personally prefer Urtext which is as close as you can get to a composer's original intentions. With regard to the first movement of the sonata Op. 27 no.2, it is very, very clear indeed. At the beginning, after Adagio Sostenuto, Beethoven writes "Si deve suonare tutto questo pezzo delicatissimamente e senza sordino", which essentially means that "The whole piece must be played very softly and sustained throughout - ie using the right sustain pedal" These are Beethoven's own instructions and should not be ignored. If they are ignored then the effect intended just will not happen! Accounts of Beethoven playing this sonata himself confirm this, as well as his use of the left Una Corda (soft) pedal.

Therefore, how anyone can say that playing the piece without sustain pedal makes it sound "less spooky" beggars belief and just reflects a complete lack of understanding of Beethoven's unequivocal intentions, as well as a shallow and naive view of piano techniques generally. Beethoven is right because he was the composer and was very clear about the overall effect he desired in performance. Even in the finale to this sonata, Beethoven is absolutely clear where the sustain pedal must be used and where it should not. These are the composer's pedal marks, not the editor's, certainly in Urtext.

Another composer who is well known for having been very, very clear with pedal and other performance directions was Chopin. Also, when you go to a piano concert, don't just watch the pianist's fingers, watch their feet too; this is just as important. You can't pick this up from audio recordings, though video recordings may help providing the camera has been set up in a long shot where you can see the pedal work too.

Just as a final point in relation to a previous post, it has already been said, but Barenboim you are so wrong! You said:
"senza sordino means using NO pedal in that movements!
In italian senza means no, hope this will help lot of pianist because this is one of the most reapeated errors." Your tone is very pompous, but you are completely wrong!
Senza does mean NO, but actually, you clearly do not understand what sordino means. It does not mean pedal, but 'mute'. I do not wish to sound pompous in return, however this needs to be asked? Why are you posting stuff in this section when you clearly don't know what on earth you are talking about? I also find it slightly amusing, but mainly extremely irritating that you have taken the name of one of the greatest Beethoven interpreters of all time. Listen to the real Daniel Barenboim playing Beethoven, then you might just learn something about piano technique!