Question on Beethoven Tempest 1st movement....

[hbofinger]

For those of you who have mastered the first movement of the Tempest sonata, I have a question you might be able to help me out with:

I find the most difficult bars in the entire movement in measures 13 through 16, the rapid descend just before the introduction of the yearning theme. I find that no matter what I do, the hand tightens up at speed, and especially after having practiced it a couple of times I can really feel my wrist. Has anyone figured out how to work around this problem?

Thanks!

[hbofinger]

Clarification:

The problem is caused by the repeated eights on the top: The D-D, then the A-A, then the F-F, then the D-D and so on. The Op 111 Production sheet music I have (which is the same as my vintage Breikopf & Härtel) has no fingering for the first of the double notes, and then the 5th finger for the repeated note. So I have played 4-5. I think it's the fourth finger that is causing the problem. Schenker uses a different set of fingering.

I found that in the end of the exposition, measures 76, 80, and 83 - 85, playing the repeated A - G sharp eights, leaving the fourth finger entirely out of commission and just playing  5-3 gives me much more control at speed. So I am trying to figure out if I can come up with a similar fingering solution for the beginning measures I am posting about.

[ramseytheii]

I think a much better fingering is, from the downbeat on F:

5 - 2 - 2 - 3 - 3 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 3 - 1 - 2 -3 - 3 - 1 - 2 - 3 etc.

Changing from 4-5 just doesn't make any sense.

Walter Ramsey

[precipitato]

i use 5 - 2 - 2 - 3 - 5 - 2 - 2 - 3 all the way down. i just drop down my right hand with the 5th finger, to accent it on purpose and it is easier to play. you might have the tendency to ruch the 5 - 2 - 2 - 3, an alternative is 5 - 1 - 2 - 3. i use both fingerings anytime i like, both are comfortable to me. depends on your technical skills. i prefer the formal a bit more though. up to you! ramseytheii has good ones too, but i personall try to avoid using black key for thumb if there is alternative.

[hbofinger]

Thanks to both of you!!! Great feedback.

Will try those alternate fingerings.

[hbofinger]

Ok, I experimented with all three options above.

precipitato: I agree with you on the thumb on black keys. I try to avoid this as best as I can. Quick question though on what you term the "formal" set. You mean the 5-2-2-3-5-2-2-3, or the printed one?

ramseytheii: Though I agree with precipitato in general on the thumbs on black keys issue, I like your fingering a lot for this passage. I was able to get up to speed very quickly on it, and my hand seems to remain the most relaxed at speed. Desperate circumstances call for desperate means, and since this sonata breaks so many conventions in its writing, why stick one that holds you back while playing?   

[ramseytheii]

Ok, I experimented with all three options above.

precipitato: I agree with you on the thumb on black keys. I try to avoid this as best as I can. Quick question though on what you term the "formal" set. You mean the 5-2-2-3-5-2-2-3, or the printed one?

ramseytheii: Though I agree with precipitato in general on the thumbs on black keys issue, I like your fingering a lot for this passage. I was able to get up to speed very quickly on it, and my hand seems to remain the most relaxed at speed. Desperate circumstances call for desperate means, and since this sonata breaks so many conventions in its writing, why stick one that holds you back while playing?   

I honestly can't think of any rational reason to avoid playing black keys with the thumbs.  There are probably more times overall that black keys are uncomfortable with the thumbs based on their position in the phrase, but we always have to look at hand position.

For me, the other fingering mentioned wouldn't work well, because it is hard at this tempo to be throwing your pinky around without any support.  My fingering is based on using strong fingers going down; not using thumb on black keys is an old-fashioned convention that doesn't have much rational basis in my opinion.

Walter Ramsey

[hbofinger]

I honestly can't think of any rational reason to avoid playing black keys with the thumbs.  There are probably more times overall that black keys are uncomfortable with the thumbs based on their position in the phrase, but we always have to look at hand position.

For me, the other fingering mentioned wouldn't work well, because it is hard at this tempo to be throwing your pinky around without any support.  My fingering is based on using strong fingers going down; not using thumb on black keys is an old-fashioned convention that doesn't have much rational basis in my opinion.

Walter Ramsey

I am also working on Moments Musicaux No. 2 right now. In the edition I have (here from Pianostreet) there is a passage in the second section that is fingered with the right thumb landing on the F# at the end of a phrase. I.e. whoever fingered this one found it perfectly acceptable to finger the thumb on the black key. And it is in print.

Funny though - it did not feel right to me, I did not like it, and I refingered it with the phrase ending on 2.

You are right. it depends on the situation, the phrase, and the entire position of the hand. And preference.

 

[precipitato]

Ok, I experimented with all three options above.

precipitato: I agree with you on the thumb on black keys. I try to avoid this as best as I can. Quick question though on what you term the "formal" set. You mean the 5-2-2-3-5-2-2-3, or the printed one?

ramseytheii: Though I agree with precipitato in general on the thumbs on black keys issue, I like your fingering a lot for this passage. I was able to get up to speed very quickly on it, and my hand seems to remain the most relaxed at speed. Desperate circumstances call for desperate means, and since this sonata breaks so many conventions in its writing, why stick one that holds you back while playing?   

yeap, i mean the 5 - 2 - 2 - 3 - 5 - 2 - 2 - 3.

I am also working on Moments Musicaux No. 2 right now. In the edition I have (here from Pianostreet) there is a passage in the second section that is fingered with the right thumb landing on the F# at the end of a phrase. I.e. whoever fingered this one found it perfectly acceptable to finger the thumb on the black key. And it is in print.

Funny though - it did not feel right to me, I did not like it, and I refingered it with the phrase ending on 2.

You are right. it depends on the situation, the phrase, and the entire position of the hand. And preference.

 

yes what you are saying is also right in some sense, but we also must look. in this case, tempest was composed in those times, 1801 - 1802, when it is still the peak of classical period. so, avoiding black keys with thumb, yes it is a old techmique. moments musicaux is something way beyond that time... and look into further works, for example later beethoven sonatas. there is using thumb on black keys more often, i am doing the appassionata and thumb on black keys is started to be used. but tempest is still... you get what i mean? but no i do not object with using thumb on black keys, it is perfectly fine.

and tempest is something i am very familiar with, i have toyed witht his score in almost every bar and phrase, this is the best i can come out with, at least to my fingers. ending with 2 is what i meant on purpose, as after that you use your middle finger to give an accent, after all it is a strong finger.

and mentioning on using pinky on notes... hmm i suggest you begin to build your pinky muscle and tecnique? as when you move on down, to huge works and transcriptions by liszt, concertos, those very advanced works, these things are used very often.

[hbofinger]

Precipitato,

Pinky is not a problem at this point. For me it's tension created using the fourth repetitively.

I have to add that I have not played for many years, got a digital two years ago to work in pieces, and now am polishing up / speeding up on a Yamaha C7 that I just got less than two weeks ago. I.e. I am behind in some ways, and have to revisit Hanon or whatever. I am glad though that this is the only passage that gave me trouble, considering it is known as a tough piece...

Another interesting note: Have you noticed that even though it is marked Allegro, Brendel and others play it basically Presto? In fact, a fast Presto? I am still playing with the tempos. I was happy to find that Kempff was at the edge of Allegro and Presto....

(I have a former student of Kempff's, who teaches at the Hamburger Musikhochschule and luckily is a good friend of mine, giving me some musical advice too...)

[precipitato]

yes, it is a relatively  hard piece, but when you learn it it is very rewarding!
oh i see your problem. yes using 4th and 5th finger is hard, as they're the weaker problem and naturally exerts tension on one's wrists to arm when excessive usage. it is good you have asked for an alternative change of fingers, as do not use such fingerings when there is an alternative possible. (but still, building up your 4th and 5th finger is very important too! future use )

and yes, i have noticed it. i feel that kempff's version is good, he obeys Beethoven and expresses it well. though brendel is another notable player of Beethoven, i like his version too. allegro seems a bit too slow, to convey the emotion of tempest, the fury and storm. even our dear Master Kempff sped it up, otherwise the image intended might not be so connected together. i myself played around brendel's speed for my ltcl, but my examiner complained nothing about it.

[hbofinger]

I agree, it is deeply rewarding. On the tempo issue, the only thing that has been holding me back was this passage, which now is pretty much under control (I still need to refine the moment the left hand joins in at high speed on measure 16, but that's all that is not solid at this point). And yes, I am now back to Hanon for getting the 4th finger back in shape.

I've found an interesting book: "Beethoven's Tempest Sonata: Perspectives of Analysis and Performance", edited by Pieter Berge. It's a compilation of analytical essays, fairly recent (2009). (Not a cheap book, unfortunately.) One needs to keep a score with numbered bars handy when reading it. I am working through it, albeit slowly....