jumping hand on thirds over scales?

[Bob]

Is it "correct" to ever play third as...
13, 24, 35... and then jump to either 12 or 13, continuing on with 24, 35, etc.?  

Or is using 13, 24 over and over better?  Better as in smoother?

[larapool]

I would say you should continue using 13, 24, 35 because it allows you to fluidly move to other keys.  I believe there's an easy Burgmuller piece in his '25 easy and progressive studies' book that actually uses this in both hands.  I can't remember the name of the piece, but it mainly uses thirds throughout the whole thing.

However, there is one part in it where he ascends in thirds on the right hand in eighth notes and only uses 24 for each eighth note, but I believe it's because the notes are staccato.  If the notes aren't staccato, use 13, 24, 35.

The beginning of Beethoven's Op. 49, No. 1 sonata in G minor uses thirds in the left hand and if you practice that you'll see why that fingering works so well.

Hope that helps!

[quantum]

If the music is fast, the odd jump is usually unnoticeable, especially when a lot of other stuff is happening around those thirds.   

However, where the music is slower, the thirds come to the foreground and legato is called for, it is probably best to keep them as connected as possible.  Slower passages also affords the player to use alternate techniques (as opposed to straight forward fingering) in order to preserve legato. 

Try practicing finger crossings such as: 2 over 3, 3 over 4, 4 over 5.  One can also use finger glissando and finger substitution. 

If you really want to look into legato double note technique further, check out books on organ technique. 

[werq34ac]

SDFJKL:VBJKL:

WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE SAYING??? If you can feel the jump, the audience can hear it. I am pretty sure you do not want the audience to hear it.

There is a better fingering for thirds. You do not necessarily need to use 12, 13, 24, and 35. FOR INSTANCE you could use 23, 14, 25, and GASP 15! which I find is very comfortable to use when playing thirds. If you look at the fingering for Chopin's 3rds etude, the trill is an alternation of 14 and 25 (though I find 13 and 25 much easier) then you have 14 25 14 23 14 25 14 23, then you have a thirds chromatic scale upwards. I don't remember the fingering, but I remember it being a very good one. Look it up (Chopin etude in G#m Op.25/6).

If it's a scale, then 13 24 35 13 24 35 just wont cut it if you want it smooth. Neither will 13 24. My teacher asked me to play a third scale once, and I played it 13 24 13 24 (and I can play it like that quite fast, although not very smooth. He laughed and said he would find me a better fingering.

As for finger glissando, it really only works from a black key to an adjacent and takes an enormous amount of touch to play it smoothly. You don't want to end up accenting the white note.

Show me the score and I'll finger it for you if you want.

[nyiregyhazi]

If it's a scale, then 13 24 35 13 24 35 just wont cut it if you want it smooth. Neither will 13 24. My teacher asked me to play a third scale once, and I played it 13 24 13 24 (and I can play it like that quite fast, although not very smooth. He laughed and said he would find me a better fingering.

I'm not surprised. It would never go anywhere near as quick to be shifting position after only two thirds. What fingering are you suggesting though? You've mentioned complex fingerings that work for very specific situations, but you have provided nothing for a regular scale. If it's not just to include the extra 12 after 35, then what on earth are you suggesting for standard major/minor scales? The smoothest way to play a scale is two positions per octave (if you count the 12 and 13 as essentially remaining in one position). This is exactly what Chopin suggests for the descending A major scale- which is rather more relevant than his fingering for chromatics. What I am surprised by is reference to jumping. There's no need to jump. Just cross 12/13 over 5 with legato.

[werq34ac]

I've never played a piece that required me to smooth out my thirds scales, thus, I never really went in depth with the fingerings. Though my teacher did mention I might add them to my daily warm-up routine.

[nyiregyhazi]

I've never played a piece that required me to smooth out my thirds scales, thus, I never really went in depth with the fingerings. Though my teacher did mention I might add them to my daily warm-up routine.

How can you criticise the regular patterns without having a superior alternative to offer? If you have nothing better to compare them to, what is the basis for your criticism?

[werq34ac]

I know at the very least that if the hand "jumps" there is something wrong. I attempted to write a suggestion, but then I realized how little experience I had with thirds in the first place. I was hoping you could finish for me..

[nyiregyhazi]

I know at the very least that if the hand "jumps" there is something wrong. I attempted to write a suggestion, but then I realized how little experience I had with thirds in the first place. I was hoping you could finish for me..

Ah, fair enough. I see where you're coming from. Jumps certainly aren't good- but it's not a problem that's associated with the actual fingering. Use of the fingering is still supposed to involve legato from at least one finger.

[keyboardclass]

Here's how you do thirds.  Obviously the faster the scale the less the wrist movement.

[Bob]

I'm talking about going faster than that.  More like playing them as scales. 4 8ves up and down. 

Because I'm hitting a wall.

How do you get them going faster?  If the hand is jumping, how's it going to jump in that fraction of an instant between two notes/thirds in a scale?  I was wondering about having fingers moving over to be closer, more ready to play the next notes, but that doesn't work if the hand is jumping 35 to 13.  So I started wondering about other fingerings for them.  The only thing I'm thinking is 13 24 over and over though. 

I do remember for legato thirds the trick is to keep just the top note held while the bottom note/hand is moving to the next position.

Isn't there a Chopin etude with extremely fast thirds? 

[m1469]

Isn't there a Chopin etude with extremely fast thirds?  

Well, they're only extremely fast if you play them that way  .  But, 25/6 in g# minor has all sorts of (chromatic) thirds (I'd love to re-write it for LH, too ).  Also, Czerny's toccata in C Major has tons of thirds.

I think/wonder if chromatic might even be easier than C Major, actually.  The fingering does depend on the key you are playing it in, at least in terms of whether you are playing black notes or not.  In C Major I just go 13 24 until the top.  Chromatic is different and probably anything with black notes could be a little different, but I'm not thinking through every key, at the moment.  But, in any case, you definitely don't want jumps but rather a planned motion for the passage and/or in groups.

[m1469]

In C Major I just go 13 24 until the top.

meh, I take it back (I just got curious and looked at my score and tried it out again) and I do 13 24 35, etc.  It works for me, but it doesn't mean it has to "jump" after the 35.

[edit] I sort of take that back, too!  It depends on the passage.  But, if I were doing 4 octaves, I'd probably go to 35.

[perfect_pitch]

What about Liszt's famous fingering for thirds... 24, 24, 24, 24, 24 etc

Used it all the time in a number of his pieces.

[werq34ac]

What about Liszt's famous fingering for thirds... 24, 24, 24, 24, 24 etc

Used it all the time in a number of his pieces.

unless that's a glissando, you can't play that legato o.o

Here's how you do thirds.  Obviously the faster the scale the less the wrist movement.

keyboardclass: that really does not help at all. You jump between hand positions even at that speed.

And yes there is a thirds etude by Chopin, having the reputation for being one of the hardest Chopin etudes. Though for what Bob is asking, I feel Op. 10/2 might help a lot, since it works on crossing the 3rd, 4th, and 5th fingers over each other. No need to play it at top tempo! but you might want to read just the right hand, or even just the chromatic scale (with the intended fingering) at a very slow speed to get used to crossing your 3rd, 4th, and 5th fingers over each other.

[Bob]

I tried them out again tonight.

My actual goal:  Fast thirds, but fast *legato* thirds.  I've been playing them staccato/marcato since it keeps the articulation the same.  But they're ready to move faster.

What I was looking for:  The same things I posted above....
"Cheat" by just making the top notes that are listened to connected.
35 jumping to 13 is ok.  But you can bend the hand a little so it's in a closer position, ready to move to the next notes faster.
Play it legato.  Duh on me.  Although I still wonder about playing them faster staccato.  I suppose I would just have to lighten up my touch a bit.

[werq34ac]

Instead of jumping from 13 to 35 or 35 to 13, you might try going 13 24 35 14 25 13 or 13 24 15 24 15. Try to avoid using the same finger twice which will definitely make a jump, which is BAD.

Cheating won't work really since you still need to make the 3rd 4th and 5th fingers legato. That's harder than making your thumb and 2nd finger legato. It does work for playing sixths however (ex. La Leggierezza) speaking of which, it does have thirds, however, there's no way to play those without jumping. Your best bet with that passage (not the ossia, legato in the ossia is definitely possible) is to play it fast enough and with pedal so that it sounds legato. It takes a lot of control with the pedal and the fingers to play it that way however.

[keyboardclass]

keyboardclass: that really does not help at all. You jump between hand positions even at that speed.

What jumping?  That's the standard fingering - all it needs is practicing to get it fast.

[gore234]

Going up a scale, I do 13 24 35 13 24 13 24 35   and goin down 35 24 13 24 13 35 24 13.  Im not that fast at playing 3rds but the fingering might help.

[keyboardclass]

The fingering is 13 24 35 12 13 24 35 etc  and that's official!

[gore234]

but with that fingering, you have the last 35 on B D  if you start on C E. Is that the fingering you want? I think your fingering is good if I play 2 octaves but I think my fingering is better for one octave going up and down.  Could these fingering work good for C sharp major?

[keyboardclass]

It's been a long time since I did my grades but I know the scales were more than an octave. If in this case it's less then your fingering may make sense but I can't see the advantage.  Yes, fine for C# major.

[werq34ac]

It's been a long time since I did my grades but I know the scales were more than an octave. If in this case it's less then your fingering may make sense but I can't see the advantage.  Yes, fine for C# major.

Dood, I can clearly hear the jumps in your hand as you change positions. And that's at that ridiculously slow speed.

13 24 35 12 means that you have to jump from 35 to 12. I can't think of any way that that can be played without a little jump between hand positions. 13 24 15 24 works a hell of a lot better.

[werq34ac]

I would post a video of how to do it (mind you it would be much faster AND smoother than keyboardclass') but I'm tech savvy and posting a youtube video seems a bit of a hassle =P

[keyboardclass]

Dood, I can clearly hear the jumps in your hand as you change positions. And that's at that ridiculously slow speed.

The 'jump' needs to be in the sound to be an issue - my jumps in the hand illustrate how to do it at a slow tempo.  And that's Dude to you!

[nyiregyhazi]

The 'jump' needs to be in the sound to be an issue - my jumps in the hand illustrate how to do it at a slow tempo.  And that's Dude to you!

Could you point to any films of professional performers "jumping" without legato in a slow tempo? You didn't even join the first 13 24 35, thanks to all those bobbing movements. If it's about what to do in a faster tempo, why did you only demonstrate it in a slow one? It's all very well insisting that your gaps cannot be heard at speed, but I'd rather like the opportunity to judge for myself. Conversely, if it's about what to do in slower tempo, why did you not play legato? I'm bemused as to what this film is supposed to convey to anybody.

Professional performers do not "bob" on every note when playing thirds. They may use gradual wrist drifts through a group of thirds, but they certainly don't use extraneous up/down movement on every individual note. This is a relaxation exercise. Not "how to" play thirds. Thirds are executed with finger motions.

[nyiregyhazi]

Dood, I can clearly hear the jumps in your hand as you change positions. And that's at that ridiculously slow speed.

13 24 35 12 means that you have to jump from 35 to 12. I can't think of any way that that can be played without a little jump between hand positions. 13 24 15 24 works a hell of a lot better.

The fingering is the one thing I agree with. If you want to play fast thirds, you need many notes in one hand position. if you go from 15-24, you'll be needing to send more fingers over almost immediately. That's too many shifts for a rapid speed. The idea is not to jump between positions. Those with advanced technique lean onto the side of the fifth and make a full legato connection in slow to moderate tempos- and still aim for maximum legato possible at high speeds. The problem in that film is the staccato third finger. The non-joining finger still needs to register it's sound properly before it's released- especially at a slow speed.

[keyboardclass]

All I can say is you guys must have pretty weird hearing.  All I hear is legato thirds (offical ones).

[werq34ac]

All I can say is you guys must have pretty weird hearing.  All I hear is legato thirds (offical ones).

I will admit I don't know the correct fingering and was experimenting myself. At slower speeds, my 15 24 works perfectly, though not at faster speeds.

HOWEVER, perhaps it is you who should pay attention to details in sound. The note is not over until the dampers stop the strings from vibrating, pay close attention to when the sound ends, how the next note connects with the previous sound, whether there is an uneven tone in the sound at the start of the next note, etc.

[nyiregyhazi]

I will admit I don't know the correct fingering and was experimenting myself. At slower speeds, my 15 24 works perfectly, though not at faster speeds.

HOWEVER, perhaps it is you who should pay attention to details in sound. The note is not over until the dampers stop the strings from vibrating, pay close attention to when the sound ends, how the next note connects with the previous sound, whether there is an uneven tone in the sound at the start of the next note, etc.

I'd just ignore him. There's no point bothering to argue with somebody whose default response to unanimous observations is to question everybody's ability to hear. Please don't judge the fingering on a flawed execution of it.

[werq34ac]

I'd just ignore him. There's no point bothering to argue with somebody whose default response to unanimous observations is to question everybody's ability to hear. Please don't judge the fingering on a flawed execution of it.

point taken, playing=flawed, my fallacy was to assume the fingering was wrong as well

[xerula]

The fingering is the one thing I agree with. If you want to play fast thirds, you need many notes in one hand position. if you go from 15-24, you'll be needing to send more fingers over almost immediately. That's too many shifts for a rapid speed. The idea is not to jump between positions. Those with advanced technique lean onto the side of the fifth and make a full legato connection in slow to moderate tempos- and still aim for maximum legato possible at high speeds. The problem in that film is the staccato third finger. The non-joining finger still needs to register it's sound properly before it's released- especially at a slow speed.

I don't consider myself to have an advanced thirds technique, but I find it trivial in a moderate tempo to do a legato 35 -> 12(3); a legato, that is, in the upper voice. Achieving a finger legato in both voices is obviously impossible - we learn to patch this with the pedal, or just not to worry about it, if the tempo or other voices provide 'cover'.

But this is also why I find descending thirds trickier. Here it is the upper voice that breaks, the voice which the ear is naturally drawn to hearing as melodic. Using the same fingering, the technical demands of a descending 12(3) -> 35 transition feels comparable to the reverse, but the melodic stuttering is much more noticeable as I speed things up. Is there another fingering I should be trying?

Tellingly, I'm relatively at home with scales in chromatic double minor thirds - no awkward jumps of hand position.

[keyboardclass]

I don't consider myself to have an advanced thirds technique, but I find it trivial in a moderate tempo to do a legato 35 -> 12(3); a legato, that is, in the upper voice. Achieving a finger legato in both voices is obviously impossible - we learn to patch this with the pedal, or just not to worry about it, if the tempo or other voices provide 'cover'.

Hopefully you are saying finger legato is capable on the top voice (apart from the first third downwards where legato is in the lower note).  That's where the two other posters are confused.  Thirds are legato as long as one voice is legato - that's the art of it.  To infinity and beyond!

[nyiregyhazi]

Hopefully you are saying finger legato is capable on the top voice (apart from the first third downwards where legato is in the lower note).  That's where the two other posters are confused.  Thirds are legato as long as one voice is legato - that's the art of it.  To infinity and beyond!

Thirds are legato if they SOUND legato. Not based on some theoretical checklist. If you do want to do it that way, rather than accuse others of being "confused", please add a box that requires the note that is to be released to first be controlled and then released slowly (so the dampers do not cut the sound absolutely instantaneously). This is why your demonstration does not sound legato to anybody other than yourself. If you could tick that box too, there's a far greater chance that it will. There's a difference between allowing a sound to register in the ear and then releasing, compared to clipping it at the very start. You can only create illusions if you first control the sound through both sounding and releasing. Not by telling people you are creating illusions and that they are wrong if they are able to see through it.

PS. Even the first three thirds were not executed legato, before the position change. In fact, scarcely a single one was executed with what I would regard as legato, as opposed to slight detachment. Legato is based on what the ear perceives and no amount of hypothetical talk will change that.  

[nyiregyhazi]

Even this demonstration doesn't greatly satisfy me as "legato"- being a little lumpy in execution. But to say that there's a marked difference in this, would be putting it mildly. Perhaps the pianist also has faulty hearing, for feeling a need to avoid obvious gaps?

[keyboardclass]

Thirds are legato if they SOUND legato.   

There's no way you can turn 12 over 5 while keeping 35 down.  I'll repeat -   as long as one voice is legato the passage is legato.  That's how the ear works.  Here's someone else (about 30secs in):

[nyiregyhazi]

There's no way you can turn 12 over 5 while keeping 35 down.  I'll repeat -   as long as one voice is legato the passage is legato.  That's how the ear works.  Here's someone else (about 30secs in):

Did you even bother to read my response, before punching out a reply? I didn't say anything about keeping 35 down. It's about HOW you do it and how it SOUNDS. I'll repeat:

"There's a difference between allowing a sound to register in the ear and then releasing, compared to clipping it at the very start. You can only create illusions if you first control the sound through both sounding and releasing. Not by telling people you are creating illusions and that they are wrong if they are able to see through it."

If you want to create illusions, you need to control the note that is to be released and keep the gap to a minimum. Just like in the film I linked. A clipped note does not sound legato. Only a note that is released a fraction of a second before the next (while the fifth joins in full) makes the illusion possible. That is why the person in the film you linked sounds also legato (well, reasonably) whereas your example does not. You state your explanation as if it's guaranteed that the ear will be fooled by anything that complies with it. Well, there's nothing wrong with anybody's hearing. What is required to fool anybody is far more specific than merely hanging on to one of the notes- and repeating that false claim will not change anything. If you think anything goes on the other note, that's exactly why nobody who commented had their ears fooled into hearing legato.

[keyboardclass]

If you want to create illusions, you need to control the note that is to be released and keep the gap to a minimum.

You'll find at speed the gap is kept at the minimum besides the ear listens to the legato not the gap - you can't hear two things at once!

[nyiregyhazi]

You'll find at speed the gap is kept at the minimum besides the ear listens to the legato not the gap - you can't hear two things at once!

Why didn't you illustrate it at speed then? At a slow tempo, it's all the more important to keep the notes as long as possible- especially if you want to go fast afterwards. If you don't have the control to minimise the gap in a slow tempo, there are going to be serious problems when you have to do so in a quick tempo. Even at speed, it's not a case of anything goes, as long as the top note joins. Exact control becomes even more important.

If the above made any sense, one could equally argue that anything goes in slow practise in general- because when you speed up nobody will hear imprecisions anyway. That is not an attitude that leads to good results at either slow speeds or fast ones. If you don't want something to be audible, you have to reduce it to the absolute minimum at any speed.

[keyboardclass]

You only hear non-legato if you're listening for it.  Why don't you try listening to the legato?

[nyiregyhazi]

You only hear non-legato if you're listening for it.  Why don't you try listening to the legato?

I don't know whether you're even being serious now, or just trolling. For the listen to hear in a certain way is something that is EARNED by the performer's execution. It is not something that comes from a request that the listener should attempt to close their ears to what they cannot fail to perceive. Your above request makes as much sense as a magician asking the audience not to look when he pulls a card out his sleeve, rather than using sleight of hand and misdirection to mask the move.

Do you think accomplished pianists write disclaimers asking the audience/competition judges to listen in a specific way? Do they tell them that if they do not hear an illusion of legato then their hearing must be at fault? Or do they take care to play in such a way that the illusion of legato will be heard in SOUND? The pianist on the film I linked didn't need to criticise anybody's hearing or tell people to listen in a special way. He just got on with making the illusion of legato, by keeping the gaps to the absolute minimum duration.

Either way, I will have nothing more to add. I'm not going inadvertently provide any more fuel for this nonsense. This is a thread about thirds. Not a thread for your fantasy that you play to a level that is beyond criticism or that everyone who hears differently has faulty hearing.

[nyiregyhazi]

Using the same fingering, the technical demands of a descending 12(3) -> 35 transition feels comparable to the reverse, but the melodic stuttering is much more noticeable as I speed things up. Is there another fingering I should be trying?

I don't personally know of one that is much good. All I'd say is that most double thirds scales tend to be situated in places where you can use pedal (or they tend to imply non legato anyway, in classical period repertoire). I'd work on staying well grounded in the keys in a slow tempo- with no staccato notes. From there, you can build up to the point where the gaps are so small as to be inaudible. One of the only extended scales in legato thirds I know of is in the Brahms 2nd concerto- and nobody actually plays that properly anyway (I doubt if even Hamelin could fit all the notes in). Aside from that, it's virtually all chromatic scales that crop up.

[werq34ac]

keyboard class: When i clicked on your youtube video, I was expecting a perfectly legato thirds scale. I was very disappointed.

Here's a thought to blow your mind, sustaining a note until the next one does not mean it is legato.  You attack each note individually rather than smoothly transition from note to note. Plus those gaps in sound are much more present that you think. Gap in sound+attacking every note=DEFINITELY NOT LEGATO.

plus your wrist bobbing technique is COMPLETELY unnecessary and highly inefficient when playing real repertoire.

[keyboardclass]

I'll say it again - if you're listening for the gaps you'll hear them.  Accusations of trolling are, of course, the last refuge of the scoundrel!

[werq34ac]

I'll say it again - if you're listening for the gaps you'll hear them.  Accusations of trolling are, of course, the last refuge of the scoundrel!

I never accused you of trolling. I actually just think you are misguided. You accuse me of LOOKING for non-legato, when in actuality I was looking for legato, which makes sense since this entire thread is based on legato thirds (which you severely lack). I mean if you post a video of yourself on a thread about legato, do you really expect people not to listen to how you play legato? Plus, it was so apparent that I would have noticed even if I wasn't thinking about legato. I had to skip back and listen to it again to make sure my computer wasn't lagging.

As for the fact that one CAN hear the gaps, WHETHER they are looking for them or not,  it still means your playing is flawed. Your "illusion" was simply not convincing. Nygiregyhazi is exactly right. You attempt to conjure cards while telling the audience to close their eyes. And when audiences see through your ill-performed "illusion," you tell them to check their ears. When they say you are a troll for your ridiculous reasons, you retort and say that they are scoundrels and are unable to refute the fact that you cannot play legato thirds.

[keyboardclass]

Let me remind you of the OP:

Is it "correct" to ever play third as...
13, 24, 35... and then jump to either 12 or 13, continuing on with 24, 35, etc.? 

Or is using 13, 24 over and over better?  Better as in smoother?

I answered it with the 'correct' solution.  If you don't like my demonstration check out the other one I posted.

[werq34ac]

The wrist still shows that it isn't legato. She's thinking vertically rather than horizontally.

[nyiregyhazi]

Let me remind you of the OP:I answered it with the 'correct' solution.  If you don't like my demonstration check out the other one I posted.

No, you answered it with an inaccurate simplification. You claimed that as long as one note joins it will sound legato. This is incorrect- as evidenced by your film. No illusion occurs unless both notes are controlled and unless the non-joining note is only released for a very short moment. What is "correct" legato fingering is that which successfully creates legato sound. While I agree with the fingering (despite the disservice you do it in your demonstration) , it takes more than a "correct" fingering to play legato thirds.

[keyboardclass]

No, you answered it with an inaccurate simplification. You claimed that as long as one note joins it will sound legato. This is incorrect-

In which case we'll have to agree to disagree.

[werq34ac]

In which case we'll have to agree to disagree.

Well, if one makes the top voice legato, then the top voice will sound legato (which you failed to achieve) I will acknowledge that much. HOWEVER, just because you are incapable of playing the lower voice legato, doesn't mean you should claim it is impossible. Plus, playing the lower voice staccato and the upper voice legato creates a very different sound then playing the lower voice non-legato let alone legato. one should be able to accomplish the 2 extremes and everything in between.