Heintzman Grand Tone Problem

[kippler]

My 6'8" Heintzman grand is almost 3 years old, bought new in December/08. The two bottom strings of the tenor section are F/21 and F#/22. Both of these notes sound very bright and coarse, and it is impossible to enjoy the sound they make. I flinch whenever I hear them. Technicians have tried to voice these notes by softening the hammer felts, but that didn't work, so I had the strings on those two notes replaced. With the new strings, the sound was slightly better, but the problem was most definitely not solved. I still flinch, and i am embarrassed by the sound those notes make when my pupils play. Any recommendations?

[pianolive]

If voicing cannot solve the problem you can have the scale re-calculated.
On these two notes you can either change the steel string diameter or calculate for two string wounded strings.
Contact a tech who knows about scale constructing.

[silverwoodpianos]

A three yr old instrument is still under warranty…………….
What was the change with the replacement strings; different core materials or different size core?

[keys60]

hmm.....interesting. Like that since new?

[kippler]

A three yr old instrument is still under warranty…………….
What was the change with the replacement strings; different core materials or different size core?

True, but when I contacted the salesman, he told me that the warranty didn't cover this problem. Frankly, I think it should, because the purpose of a musical instrument is to generate sound, and, on a stringed instrument, to do so in an aurally consistent way. Warranty is supposed to cover defects of workmanship and materials. Why the materials used in this piano do not produce a consistent sound throughout its range is beyond me, but they don't.

I can't answer the question about the replacement strings — my tuner at the time, also a tech who is rebuilding his own Heintzman grand, ordered the strings and put them on. He has since refused to work on this piano because design/manufacturing in the upper end make it impossible to tune it properly.

hmm.....interesting. Like that since new?

Yes, it was like that on the showroom floor. I asked them to remedy it before delivering. Apparently they didn't know how to deal with it themselves. When I complained again after delivery, they sent a tech who tried re-voicing those two notes, but it didn't work. Since even the change of strings didn't work, it has to be a design problem of some sort or other. Strictly speaking, a design problem is not a defect in workmanship or materials. But I have an instrument with which I am simply not happy.

[keys60]

If you are so disgusted with this instrument, maybe you should not have accepted it. Too late for that, I guess. Trade it in at the same dealer for something you will be happy with. Sounds like they duped you. They owe you one IMO.

[silverwoodpianos]

The salesman is partly correct; there are no warranties for strings. However it is not the strings that are the problem; it is a scaling issue close to the break which is common.

The improper scaling issue is a warranty item.  Have you played other models of the same instrument and found the same thing? I would consider completing some of that research also…not necessarily at the same dealership…..

Depending upon whether or not this is a high tension or low tension scaling will determine the changes required, which is impossible to determine in this format. There are lots of scaling programs out there for adjusting problems of this sort.
 
Regarding the former tuner who has his own rebuilding project, this is most likely a Heintzman from the original factory in Canada.

The Heintzman & Co original product with the Patented Agraffe Bridge design is the most difficult piano the string along with being one of the most difficult instruments to tune.

I haven’t had a chance to see the new Heintzman product out of China to see if they are still making the Patented Agraffe Bridge plate or if they are using single agraffes. Either design is still a different technique to tune and not that easy. No reason to walk away though….

[kippler]

The salesman is partly correct; there are no warranties for strings. However it is not the strings that are the problem; it is a scaling issue close to the break which is common.

The improper scaling issue is a warranty item.  Have you played other models of the same instrument and found the same thing? I would consider completing some of that research also…not necessarily at the same dealership…..

Depending upon whether or not this is a high tension or low tension scaling will determine the changes required, which is impossible to determine in this format. There are lots of scaling programs out there for adjusting problems of this sort.
 
Regarding the former tuner who has his own rebuilding project, this is most likely a Heintzman from the original factory in Canada.

The Heintzman & Co original product with the Patented Agraffe Bridge design is the most difficult piano the string along with being one of the most difficult instruments to tune.

I haven’t had a chance to see the new Heintzman product out of China to see if they are still making the Patented Agraffe Bridge plate or if they are using single agraffes. Either design is still a different technique to tune and not that easy. No reason to walk away though….

Silverwoodpianos, thank you so much for your reply — you've made my day!!

1) I have not played other similar instruments at the dealer's or anywhere else, but now I'm on the prowl, since I have a 10-year warranty. This is one of the new instruments from China. Photos attached show strings in the two top sections of the frame, and at the bottom of the tenor section with its agraffes.

What are "scaling programs"? -- are they computer or mobile phone based, and are they available to the public or only to techs?

And yes, the instrument being rebuilt is one of the originals made in Toronto.

By your last line, "No reason to walk away though,...." I take it that the problems described are not insurmountable, and even have solutions within reach. As long as I have understood you correctly, this gives me hope. Many thanks!!

[keys60]

Dan. I didn't think of the common tone differences at the break. My Baldwin has a fairly noticeable  change too, but as the sound was described, to me it sounded like it was beyond that explanation. I didn't think it could be as bad as posted. My bad.  Thanks for that highly informative reply.

[kippler]

Just to re-visit an earlier comment, when the strings were replaced, the ones that came with the piano were removed and taken to a string maker. He simply copied what was already there; he didn't change anything about the string, except perhaps a better quality of string.

This past week, one of the top tuner/techs in the city (he services major performance venues — symphony, opera, ballet, live theatre, you get the picture), and he went to work with his voicing tool. Despite his efforts, the problem remains.

A couple of days after this major re-voicing effort, it occurred to me that the sound of these strings might be due to some of the upper partials being too strong, resulting in a too-bright, ugly, obnoxious sound.

So now I have to find a string-maker that knows how to deal with that.