Small hands, technique and rachmaninov

[fallen_star]

I've been playing the piano for 20 years, and have been teaching young children for the past few years. I do not believe there is anything someone can't play because of their physical attributes.

I have small hands. I can only just reach an octave if pressing notes in between. My thumb to pinky are in a 180 degree line, they can't stretch any more. I also have nerve damage in my middle finger in my right hand.

I love the rach 2. For the entry into the 1st movement I just hack off the bottom note of the right hand, and the top of the left and block them. I dislike the arpeggiation as performed by he himself, Rachmaninov, and the omission of those 2 notes does not affect the overall structure of the chords greatly.

So we come to the holding minims in the glorious chordal part of the second movement, where a minim is to be held while octaves are played. I have to let go of most of them pretty quick as I then can't reach the octaves, so I have now let go of all of them. It sounds no different whatsoever as the pedal sustains the note, it only looks different technique wise, and obviously, without a pedal, sounds like crap.

The question is, does it really matter? How many people in the audience are watching the hands? Why on earth does someone in the 20th century, when writing music to be used with a pedal, put in holding notes?

[pianowolfi]

Did you notice the semibreves in the first measures of this movement? I can't imagine that Rachmaninov himself really held those, despite of his huge handspan. Nevertheless they are real: Rachmaninov's technique is almost famous for it's legato and holding notes, and voicing many different layers *without* holding them physically with the fingers. (P.S. and mind you, this opinion comes from a "legato nerd"   )

So yes, I think it's about performing magic through an interaction of fingers, voicing, and pedal
And so: don't feel discouraged, least by Rachmaninov

[vmishka]

I have started taking lessons again in the last two months, from a really good pianist and teacher. I am learning a lot about physically getting off notes as soon as it is not necessary to hold them. I am also studying Rach 2. I too have very small hands.

On Thursday, I am going to travel to Victoria, Canada to spend a couple of hours playing on a 7/8 keyboard made by David Steinbuhler (www.dskeyboards.com).

It will be fascinating to see how this experience effects my perception of technique.

[pianowolfi]

Indeed that's a very good thing! Why shouldn't there be 7/8 keyboards and 3/4 and such, as there are already 3/4 and 1/2 violins etc... and cellos and double bass and all that? I think that would be of great advantage and technically manageable, nowadays

[werq34ac]

I feel that small hands aren't TOO much of a factor, but if you can't even reach an octave, then we have a problem. Octave technique is perhaps the MOST common technique used in more advanced piano pieces. Rach 2 itself has several octave/chord passages that, if you can't reach an  octave, are pretty much impossible.

As for omitting notes, here's my take on it. HOW COULD YOU??? Every note is there FOR A REASON. Rach wrote each chord the way he did because that is EXACTLY what he wanted. He wanted an F to be in the base, a C and an Ab for harmony, CFAbC for texture. If you omit notes, it just won't sound as full. Plus with chords with several notes in them, there are 100s of ways to voice them. Omitting notes removes many of these possibilities which severely restricts just how that first chord will sound. And all that was only with the 1st, and the 2nd most reachable chord. The most reachable chord is the FCEbACEbFAC

[gvans]

Re playing piano with small hands, large hands, any hands: Hans van Bulow, in response to a woman complaining about her seat in the auditorium ("I cannot see the pianist's hands"): "Madame, one does not play the piano with one's hands. One plays the instrument with one's brain." 

[fallen_star]

Thanks for the comments, as to how could I omit notes, how can anyone glissando a block chord?

I don't understand how holding a note on gives it extra texture when the pedal holds it. In the section after the second octaves theme a tone lower, the holding notes fade into the background with 5 and 1, while the remaining fingers ring out the ascending tune. it's like the holding notes are being shown to be in the background, a complement rather than the melody. Perhaps that also applies to the octaves section???

Michael Nyman writes what looks like holding notes, but they are not, they are there to demonstrate what the tune is, to ring those notes out louder than the others, he doesn't hold them.

Oh, and what I mean by only just an octave with notes in between is the final section of the second movement, using 5 finger chords. I can push the 9th and 8th together (just), that's ok, I don't have to omit notes.

[werq34ac]

Ah I see what you are saying. As for holding the notes, yeah I was talking about the opening chords when i was talking about full texture. The section you are talking about requires a 2 5 octave reach in addition to a hand spanning an 11th. The benefits of this near impossible task (I know very few pianists who can reach an 11th let alone an 11th and a 2 5 octave at the same time) would be one would be able to change the pedal more often so it isn't as muddy. Unfortunately most of us (myself included) cannot reach that thus we must settle for holding down the pedal until the next octave.

As for the opening chords, I am adamant about not omitting notes. The most common fix to this problem is to play the F and then the other notes in the left hand with the all the notes in the right hand. This is reachable for most pianists. Since many cannot block the chords, one should achieve a sound that is as full in texture to the original and still give the impression of being blocked.

[fallen_star]

I can't reach the lower of the right hand notes either... I will try a leap from the F with the lower of the right hand notes (not got the score in front of me) to the rest of the chord.

It is a truly beautiful piece of music, particularly the 2nd movement. I love playing it, practising it, taking it apart and putting it back together again, it makes me happy I love it when the groundwork is laid, the mechanics come together and the tune just appears all pretty and singing over the top without any effort to bring it out. That's the beauty of Rachmaninov.

[werq34ac]

Have you tried using your Right thumb to play the two bottom notes of the RH chord?

[fallen_star]

sorry, i didn't have the music in front of me. The D and C yes, the Db and C, impossible, and the Eb and C also impossible. Stretching my tendons over years might get the Eb, but the Db is out of range. Both would involve my forefinger being next to my thumb at full stretch. I don't know about other peoples hands but I think I'd need to be double jointed? Are anyone elses hands like that?

[nyiregyhazi]

I have to be honest, I wouldn't find that acceptable to have notes left out completely in the opening chords. Have you tried stretching exercises? Most hands ought to be capable of building up to chords within an octave.

[fallen_star]

Even C Db F Ab C in the right hand? with dinky hands?

[fallen_star]

I take that back, I think you might be right. I simply took that my right hand is normal in it's span but I can reverse that easily with my left hand (F Ab C Eb F, not E natural, so for the Eb it would work if my right hand had the dexterity of my left)

Not only am I very left handed, but the substantial damage to my middle finger on my right hand caused the whole hand to claw up, and it took a year to fully extend my fingers again. It still pulls like hell though. Can you suggest any exercises, perhaps away from the piano that I can all the time, that might limber it up a bit? I guess I've been in denial about the extent of the damage from the accident. I've tried to ignore it as best I can, I don't like thinking about it. Time my hand came back to life.

[nyiregyhazi]

Even C Db F Ab C in the right hand? with dinky hands?

For years I couldn't stretch that myself (even with an 11th from 1-5) unless I blocked the semitone in my thumb. To be honest, it's more about how you move rather than what the exercise is- but I'd work on a lot of broken chords. The idea that the piano opens your hand rather than your muscles is quite a good way of looking at it (if a little simplified).

[fallen_star]

I looked at hand exercises online, only then did i realise how sore it still is! broken chords are a great idea, and I'll start doing the exercises too.

[vmishka]

I played the 7/8 keyboard for a few hours yesterday. For certain passages, it is unbelievably good (and I didn't really notice a "down" side). All of the stretches are gone, because the span of an octave is now equivalent to a 7th on a regular keyboard. For example, the bravura 6ths in Chopin Op 10 No 3 become comfortable, and I can play filled in 10ths in Scrabin and Schubert that I had to roll before. The chords in the Marche section of the 1st movement of Rach 2 are comfortable.

Has anyone mentioned that in the opening chords of the Rach 2 (on a regular keyboard), you can take middle C in the left hand instead of the right (playing the F as a "grace note" of course)?

[fallen_star]

I played the 7/8 keyboard for a few hours yesterday. For certain passages, it is unbelievably good (and I didn't really notice a "down" side). All of the stretches are gone, because the span of an octave is now equivalent to a 7th on a regular keyboard.

The problem with a 7/8 keyboard is that you will only ever be able to play your own. I play in bars, sometimes restaurants on their piano, and playing the house keyboard at a gig saves lumping mine in. It's a great idea, but to look at a piano and say "I can't play that, I can only play my own" would be abhorrent to me. I even learnt guitar/bass right handed rather than left so I could pick up any instrument.

Has anyone mentioned that in the opening chords of the Rach 2 (on a regular keyboard), you can take middle C in the left hand instead of the right (playing the F as a "grace note" of course)?

It is an idea, I have been glissando-ing them just as exercise, but really do prefer block chords, so suspect that might be the way forward x

[werq34ac]

I played the 7/8 keyboard for a few hours yesterday. For certain passages, it is unbelievably good (and I didn't really notice a "down" side). All of the stretches are gone, because the span of an octave is now equivalent to a 7th on a regular keyboard. For example, the bravura 6ths in Chopin Op 10 No 3 become comfortable, and I can play filled in 10ths in Scrabin and Schubert that I had to roll before. The chords in the Marche section of the 1st movement of Rach 2 are comfortable.

Has anyone mentioned that in the opening chords of the Rach 2 (on a regular keyboard), you can take middle C in the left hand instead of the right (playing the F as a "grace note" of course)?

I don't see why one would do that though? I mean if you look at the second chord, it would be much easier to play the middle C with the hand, bottom F grace note or not.
Play it as written, and block it. By blocking do you mean playing the bottom two then the top two?

[viols]

My experience is that of a classically trained violinist who loves piano.  

Historically, keyboards were smaller weren't they?  The Clavis and harpsichords, portative organ ...?  They weren't initially oriented toward 'large' venue performances.  It's the 'modern' keyboard and writing that exceeds 'limitation'.
As society changed through the centuries, maybe there were more men playing as the repertoire became less constrained and even more public ... that's basically what happened with all instruments, viols included.  The modern violin is a different creature, larger, bigger sound than the viols of the Renaissance and Baroque.

Also, I think it's fair to say we all wish to come as close as we can to what the composers vision was/is.  But we are mortals, as they were ~ and have our own integrity of expression to consider.  For me that doesn't include a merciless insistence on the letter of the law, so to speak. - as long as the integrity of the musical vision is achieved

[fallen_star]

Play it as written, and block it. By blocking do you mean playing the bottom two then the top two?

No, block chord is all together at the same time.

[fallen_star]

Also, I think it's fair to say we all wish to come as close as we can to what the composers vision was/is.  But we are mortals, as they were ~ and have our own integrity of expression to consider.  For me that doesn't include a merciless insistence on the letter of the law, so to speak. - as long as the integrity of the musical vision is achieved

I wonder what mozart would have written had he had access to a sustain pedal. and bach too. All of the baroch/classical composers that wrote in texture, that removing a key was as important as placing one. They had little choice. We faithfully represent that, but should we always?

I think the integrity is more important than a note. My history of performing on the piano is in rock and jazz, where timing is everything, the notes, not really that important as long as they form a general structure. I remember reading something about someone's interpretation of the rach 3, that is wasn't technically perfect, but it was the best interpretation/performance the narrator had heard. That kinda stuck with me.

Ironically, I started this thread not for the opening chords, but for the apparent technique of holding on notes that the piano sustains, despite the difficulties (big hands)/impossibilities (small hands) of that.

And I wonder, had Rachmaninov gone to the loo at some point instead of staying writing, would it have been different? Did composers really place EVERY note deliberately, or was it, erm, I like that, or definately a diminished 5th of some kind there, or yep, some kind of terminal cadence going in there... I mean, the 2nd movement was his 2nd attempt, it was nearly never written, the first being pretty but in no way remarkable like the finished article.

[werq34ac]

I wonder what mozart would have written had he had access to a sustain pedal. and bach too. All of the baroch/classical composers that wrote in texture, that removing a key was as important as placing one. They had little choice. We faithfully represent that, but should we always?

I think the integrity is more important than a note. My history of performing on the piano is in rock and jazz, where timing is everything, the notes, not really that important as long as they form a general structure. I remember reading something about someone's interpretation of the rach 3, that is wasn't technically perfect, but it was the best interpretation/performance the narrator had heard. That kinda stuck with me.

Ironically, I started this thread not for the opening chords, but for the apparent technique of holding on notes that the piano sustains, despite the difficulties (big hands)/impossibilities (small hands) of that.

And I wonder, had Rachmaninov gone to the loo at some point instead of staying writing, would it have been different? Did composers really place EVERY note deliberately, or was it, erm, I like that, or definately a diminished 5th of some kind there, or yep, some kind of terminal cadence going in there... I mean, the 2nd movement was his 2nd attempt, it was nearly never written, the first being pretty but in no way remarkable like the finished article.

There is never a single unnecessary note coming from the pens of master composers

[fallen_star]

I suspect that might be a little naive...

[werq34ac]

Personally, I feel that every note has its importance and it wouldn't have been written down if the composer didn't want it to be written down. To say that a composer wrote an unnecessary note is like questioning their compositional judgement.

[pianoplayjl]

So every note plays a part. right? So is it like omitting a note is making a piece of music feel abit 'emptier'?

[werq34ac]

So every note plays a part. right? So is it like omitting a note is making a piece of music feel abit 'emptier'?

In addition to that, changing slightly changes the piece itself. It's like cutting off a finger and sewing someone else's back on.

[fallen_star]

I didn't say they wrote unnecessary notes, only that it would have turned out different with a different mood or a break from writing that didn't happen, or did.

Doesn't adding grace notes to reach the notes change the piece too?

[werq34ac]

It was common practice in the Baroque era for improvisation, thus adding extra ornaments is okay in Baroque music (to some extent). Not so much classical and onwards.

Grace notes? As in playing the bottom F of the opening chords as a grace note? Yes it does change how it sounds, but unfortunately, most of cannot reach the chords. A grace note is as close to the score as possible.

[keyboardkat]

There is never a single unnecessary note coming from the pens of master composers

Now, let's not be dogmatic.  This isn't Scripture we're talking about.  Rachmaninoff's textures were extremely rich with notes, some of which were unnecessary, AS RACHMANINOFF HIMSELF ACKNOWLEDGED!   He himself stood 6'4" and had hands which could span a fourteenth!  He could play a tenth chord, C-E-G-C-E, fingered from bottom to top 2-3-1-4-5!   He put in all those notes because he could play them.   But most of us have to rely on sleight-of-hand when confronted with music like this.   With Rachmaninoff, it isn't that you must hear every individual note pointed up.  With that, you just get a lot of busy-ness.   The overall effect of all the notes is what you should hear.    While Rachmaninoff used the Steinway in America, in his chateau in Switzerland, he had a Bluthner and a Bechstein, which like the old Knabes in America, had a more European, mellower sound.  This sort of goes along with what I'm saying.

It is well known that all pianists "cheat"  (except perhaps Egon Petri, who said he never faked anything).   The idea is to do it in such a way that no one listening realizes what is being done.
Horowitz was a master at this.   If he had a fast scale passage to play, he might skip a note or two.  He understood that the ear could not catch these skipped notes, and it was easier to play it his way.   In an octave passage, he might, in passing, play one of the octaves as a single note.  I discovered myself that if you play a passage in octaves, if you leave out the tenor voice (the left thumb) here and there, it cannot be detected.   Horowitz often said that what composers ask us to do should be outlawed.

[keyboardkat]

I'm not saying one should always look to take the easy way out.   But you should know that in the Baroque and Classical periods, composers EXPECTED performers to add ornaments and make changes in what they wrote.   And sometimes, composers can't make up their minds what they want.   Look at the "ossias" in Liszt.  It appears that he just couldn't decide which way he wanted it.   Look at the "ossias" in the Rachmaninoff Third Concerto.   In that case, the ossias are often more difficult than what is written on the main staves.

The late violinist Mischa Elman was rehearsing a then-new concerto by Bohuslav Martinu.  In one case the violin part was barely sketched in.   Elman said to the composer, "Bohuslav, what do you want there?"  The composer replied, "I don't know."   The late Earl Wild said that he had worked with many composers and they were always flexible.

[werq34ac]

I'm not saying be dogmatic, but respect the composers' wishes whatever those may be.

[keyboardkat]

Of course.   But you know, if you give ten pianists the same piece to play, they will each play it differently, and each will insist he/she is only playing what is written.   That's because each of us responds to the music in our own way.  Human beings are not mass-produced.  There are now about 7 billion people in the world and not one of them is exactly like you, or me.

[werq34ac]

Of course.   But you know, if you give ten pianists the same piece to play, they will each play it differently, and each will insist he/she is only playing what is written.   That's because each of us responds to the music in our own way.  Human beings are not mass-produced.  There are now about 7 billion people in the world and not one of them is exactly like you, or me.

Of course, we all could look at a painting and see different things. Each has their own interpretation. Still, whatever decisions we may make about playing a piece, we should have very good reasons if we are going to change whats in the actual score.