What are the signs of a really good teacher?

[coffee_guy]

How do you really know if your teacher is good/excellent if you have never had another perspective?

[m1469]

That's a great question!  I'm pretty fascinated by the whole thing, myself.  The only thing I can offer, though, is hindsight ... which isn't the same because hindsight is wiser than before you have it, and so even if I could articulate it (haha ... I almost spoke Italian there, and I don't actually speak Italian!  That reminds me, one time I went to a vocal workshop where I stayed the night and during that night, I dreamt in Italian for no apparent reason!  What the?), it probably wouldn't resonate the same way!  

All I can say is look to what kind of student you are, and what kind of person you are in response to the situation.  There are specifics for me, but I think everybody is different.  What types of things do you think make up a good student and person?  What kind of student and person do you want to be?  Really there should be *some* kind of mirrored reflection, there, for you - at least for a right match.  And, that doesn't necessarily mean your lives (or musical lives) reflect each others (at least not completely), but there should be something about working with this person that helps you be and grow into being the student and person you really want to be.

A lot of it does have to do with what you feel is important to you, though, too!  

[pianoplayjl]

In my opinion, a sign of a good teacher is someone who is willing to go overtime to teach you properly, (not unlike teachers who are there for the money) go over stuff and discuss problems and how to overcome them. Also, my teacher is willing to teach me anyting relevant to my grade, even though he never heard of it, or seen the score, etc. The best way to describe my teacher is that he is versatile, and teaches students according to their standard.

However, this is just my opinion.  

[kellyc]

hello Coffee_guy. Well lets see the first qualification that a good teacher should have is a strong knowledge of what they are trying to teach. Second would be good communication skills. Third would be the ability to analyze there student and choose the proper techniques to get that information they have over to there student. Fourth would be the ability to maintain the students interest and that sometimes involves things that have nothing to do with the field they are teaching.

Well there is a start. There is more , but thats the foundation of a good teacher.

Kelly.

[m1469]

Fundamentally I don't disagree with you, but: 

hello Coffee_guy. Well lets see the first qualification that a good teacher should have is a strong knowledge of what they are trying to teach.

And how does a student who does not themselves have this knowledge, who hasn't a true idea on what it looks like, sounds like, feels like, and who has no perspective, determine that a teacher has this knowledge?

Second would be good communication skills. Third would be the ability to analyze there student and choose the proper techniques to get that information they have over to there student.

How does the same type of student I mentioned above know that this is happening?

All of these things can be "faked" by somebody with an unknowing student, but a student at least has a chance of knowing what kind of a student and person they are being in response.  Of course there are simple mismatches, too, where there could be a truly great teacher and a truly great student with no mutual and positive responses to one another, but that's different.   

[mcdiddy1]

There are many signs of good teaching. One way you will know a good teacher is they care about students more than they care about their own ego. When they ask personal questions about you, are generally communicative, and have an openness to share and accept new ideas then those are the signs of a good one. Bad teachers tend to be dogmatic in their approaches, lack the ability to learn from others, and believe it is their way or the highway. A good teacher will have a wealth of skills, strategies, and tricks that work, valid, and make sense. You should have an "a ha" moment and feel a sense of clarity. Good teachers are also have a sense of humor, personable and understand how to relate to the student on an individual basis in a way that is genuine. Ultimately the best sign of a good teacher is the results they produce and the feeling you have when leaving the lesson. You should feel well informed, prepared, and at least some times inspired to work hard to meet your teachers high expectations.

[jaggens]

Hi Coffee Guy,

Some ideas:

1) The good teacher should be an expert. He/she should know and be able to explain and show what works and what does not. Also - not everything is adaptable for every person. So he/she should also know the main principles and be able to flexibly transmit it to the student.

2) If he/she has expert information, the next step is communication. It should be interpersonal. Have you ever felt that with great teachers you learn yourself and he/she just helps and gives you the good environment? Asking questions and making the student think and concentrate more and more.

3) The ability to inspire and create passion for music and the piano.

4) The ability to go step by step in a logical following.

Jaak

[coffee_guy]

well, my teacher is very talented, I have no doubt about that. I do have some doubts about their ability to teach in an effective way.

I feel like my lessons are all over the map (from week to week) Also, there have been times where I have asked for feedback on songs (and gotten the reply, "it sounds good to me") avoiding any real critique or suggestions on how I can approve it. I know I am not that good!

I am always told (by my teacher) that I am progressing very quickly and to just keep doing what I am a doing... fine I guess, but sometimes I wonder if my progress is due to the amount of hard work and hours I have put in and nothing else. I guess I am sounding ungrateful, I mean, I am learning piano... I just hope it's the best possible way, and that is hard to know if you have no comparison.

[brogers70]

I've moved around a lot and therefore have had 6-7 piano teachers over 10 years. Most were not very good. If you have trouble making yourself practice, perhaps their mere existence will keep you honest, but if you are already working hard, as you seem to be, then you need a teacher who works hard, too. If they're saying "Sounds fine to me, just keep doing what you are doing," then they are basically coming out and saying that they can't teach you anything. My current teacher is very good. I come to each lesson with questions or problems and he works with me on each one in detail, showing me motions, demonstrating, quality-controlling what I do. So if I ask him how to play a particular legato octaves passage, he critiques how I'm playing it, shows me the right motions, shows me a few different exercises to work on the right motions and helps make a plan to fix the problem. Or he'll listen to a piece while I record it, and then sit down with me and the score and point out strengths and weaknesses, lists of things to focus on. He works as hard as I do. A teacher who just says "That's great" or even a teacher who says "you made some mistakes in there, need to practice that bit more" is probably not worth the money.

[m1469]

Can you play through your pieces by memory without problems?

What is your practice schedule like?

What's the content of your practice sessions?

How many pieces are you working on?

What are your goals and requirements, immediate and otherwise?

Do you show up to all of your lessons on time?

Do you know your scales and arpeggios?

Do you sleep with your music under your pillow?

When's your most effective practice time during the day?  

How long do you function effectively while practicing?

How big a priority is piano in your life?

If you had all the time in the world, what would be your ideal practice schedule/number of hours?  How would you use *that* time?

What are you prepared to sacrifice for studying?

Who are some of your favorite composers?

Who are some of your favorite performers?

Do you ever cancel your lessons?

What's your best working environment?

How many questions do you think I could ask you?

[xerula]

I thought it might be amusing to list some signs of a really *bad* piano teacher. This is my experience of having lessons from a failed concert pianist when I was 14.

- He cancelled lessons because "I feel too fat today."

- He would not actually look at me playing the piano, but instead sat some distance away in an armchair, calling out unhelpful little corrections... "faster"... "trill with more notes"...

- He'd set me completely inappropriate repertoire probably for his own amusement. Struggling with grade 8 pieces? Some Stravinsky will sort you out - Three Movements from Petrushka! Three months later: "I think this piece might be a bit too difficult for you..."

- He was a pretty horrible pianist himself. He'd neglected his technique for decades and mostly played sentimental arrangements of Chinese folk songs.

- He had a herd of little dogs that filled his apartment with their yapping and doggie smells.

OK, I will answer on topic a bit later!

[mcdiddy1]

I thought it might be amusing to list some signs of a really *bad* piano teacher. This is my experience of having lessons from a failed concert pianist when I was 14.

- He cancelled lessons because "I feel too fat today."

- He would not actually look at me playing the piano, but instead sat some distance away in an armchair, calling out unhelpful little corrections... "faster"... "trill with more notes"...

- He'd set me completely inappropriate repertoire probably for his own amusement. Struggling with grade 8 pieces? Some Stravinsky will sort you out - Three Movements from Petrushka! Three months later: "I think this piece might be a bit too difficult for you..."

- He was a pretty horrible pianist himself. He'd neglected his technique for decades and mostly played sentimental arrangements of Chinese folk songs.

- He had a herd of little dogs that filled his apartment with their yapping and doggie smells.

OK, I will answer on topic a bit later!

Wow. thats so fuuny. Did all this actual happen to you?

[coffee_guy]

Can you play through your pieces by memory without problems?

What is your practice schedule like?
 2.5 on week days - 3.5 – 4 I have been playing the piano for exactly 10 months. I also took a semester of keyboarding in college and 1 year of electronic music in high school. I have played guitar and drums for 16 years. I am 30.
What's the content of your practice sessions?
Scales & arpeggios, Hanon, Chords, Songs

How many pieces are you working on?
2-3 a month – I self-select my pieces, my teacher rarely seems to care about this.  I have a friend who is classically trained and has been suggesting level 2-3 pieces for me.  I have done one level 4 piece as well.

What are your goals and requirements, immediate and otherwise?
I already play guitar and drums, I want to start recording my own music and get to Grade 5 on piano. These are longer term goals.

Short term goal is to improve my sight reading and
Do you show up to all of your lessons on time?
Early every time, wait in the warm-up room until he gets me.

Do you know your scales and arpeggios?
Every single scale there is? I know my major scales. On guitar I know many more.

Do you sleep with your music under your pillow?
Never

When's your most effective practice time during the day? 
In the evening or anytime on weekends

How long do you function effectively while practicing?
45 minutes, an hour at most.

How big a priority is piano in your life?
Music is my favorite hobby. I would be upset if I stopped played music or piano.

If you had all the time in the world, what would be your ideal practice schedule/number of hours?  How would you use *that* time?
4 hours daily

What are you prepared to sacrifice for studying?
My left testicle.

Who are some of your favorite composers?
Schumann, Bach, John Williams, Joe Sanders

Who are some of your favorite performers?
The Clash, Billy Bragg

Do you ever cancel your lessons?
No, but I want to quit my lessons.

What's your best working environment?
No clue
How many questions do you think I could ask you?
Too many 

[dcstudio]

well, my teacher is very talented, I have no doubt about that. I do have some doubts about their ability to teach in an effective way.

I feel like my lessons are all over the map (from week to week) Also, there have been times where I have asked for feedback on songs (and gotten the reply, "it sounds good to me") avoiding any real critique or suggestions on how I can approve it. I know I am not that good!

I am always told (by my teacher) that I am progressing very quickly and to just keep doing what I am a doing... fine I guess, but sometimes I wonder if my progress is due to the amount of hard work and hours I have put in and nothing else. I guess I am sounding ungrateful, I mean, I am learning piano... I just hope it's the best possible way, and that is hard to know if you have no comparison.

hmmm very interesting post.  Progress is always the result of your hard work and hours of practice.  If you have doubts--they are probably accurate and it would not hurt to check out another teacher.  No teacher has all the answers and I am not sure that a "best possible way" exists--and if it does it is certainly not the same "way" for everyone.  A basis for comparison is always a good thing.    You are responsible for your music education ultimately--not your teacher.

[m1469]

hmmm very interesting post.  Progress is always the result of your hard work and hours of practice.  If you have doubts--they are probably accurate and it would not hurt to check out another teacher.  No teacher has all the answers and I am not sure that a "best possible way" exists--and if it does it is certainly not the same "way" for everyone.  A basis for comparison is always a good thing.    You are responsible for your music education ultimately--not your teacher.

Glad you're here - however, this is spoken like ultimate words of wisdom, and while there is wisdom within it and truth, it is extremely age-specific, not necessarily musically-developed-specific.  Almost none of this would hold the same water for a 3-teenager yr. old.  And, while the OP may indeed be an adult in human years, in musical/student years this is a different story, actually, and one of the biggest things that can get in the way of an adult student's progress with a teacher is thinking "I am an adult, I know best (or "should" know best since I'm an adult) and I expect this this and this."   That is not to say intellect and pragmatism shouldn't be employed because they should, but the entire situation here revolves around a musically young student, regardless of human age.  

So, yes, as adults there are faculties of reasoning and observation that can work in our favor beyond what younger humans may have, but just because you are doubting something doesn't mean your doubts are true!  And, just because we all have to be the one to put in the individual work and that's the bottom line for everybody, doesn't mean that an adult is more "responsible" for their own education any more than a 3 year old would be!  We all learn through experience and being an adult doesn't make somebody automatically musically wise!  That's the whole point!  While teachers may or may not have a fuller perspective on an individual in personal ways, and while a teacher may or may not make all of the "right" decisions, it's perfectly acceptable, I believe, to be able to depend on a teacher's perspective as being fuller than a student's and that, yes, there is a certain point to that where the student must be willing to trust in the teacher's greater perspective.

As people, we are ultimately responsible for our own sense of values and ability to survive, but as we are growing into that it's ultimately considered acceptable to have loving parents in one's life who can be relied upon in profound ways.  Metaphorically, I believe much relates to developing as a musician.

[flyinfingers]

My two cents just from my recent experience:  First lesson back after not playing for 40 years -- YIKES!  I sound so aaahhh young!  My first lesson back I went to some younger woman and she gave me 14 scales to learn and handed me John Thompson book and told me to sight read out of it.  I never went back.  That is just ludicrous to tell me to play 14 scales my first week back and sight read out of a book with no direction.  Now that is not a good teacher!

[m1469]

That is just ludicrous to tell me to play 14 scales my first week back and sight read out of a book with no direction.  Now that is not a good teacher!

Perhaps you feel mostly that it was out of touch with you as a student?    

[kellyc]

m1469 said something very interesting in one of her posts. She talked about knowing what your goals are. That can dramatically change what your definition of a good teacher is.  If your goal is simply to learn to play the piano with some mild degree of skill that is one thing. If on the other hand your goal is to pursue a professional career in music, then it becomes important to have a teacher who knows the right people, the right recitals, the important competitions, good connections at some major conservatories.

If I was looking for the first type of teacher , I would want to look at there references and listen if possible to other students of there's. Now if your child , its the parents who need to take care of this. On the other hand when I was 5 , it was very important to me that my teacher new about Barbie's . As I got older what was important in a teacher changed.

For the second type of teacher , i would be very interested in any of there pupils who had won competitions, who where placed in top conservatories, or who had performed with orchestra's. A teacher at this level usually requires a serious audition to be accepted as a student.

And I mentioned two different types of teachers. There are so many other categories you could list. All of this gets back to what m1469 said . You need to know your own goals to decide what a good teacher would be for you.

Kelly

[flyinfingers]

Perhaps you feel mostly that it was out of touch with you as a student?    

What are you trying to say?  I don't understand.  But it's a moot point because, in my opinion, that is not the sign of a good teacher.  I'm not a novice when it comes to piano lessons.  If you read my other post, I already had lessons as a kid!

[flyinfingers]

m1469, after not having played for years I am just mastering the C scale again with four octaves and the fingering.  How could I not think that that playing 14 scales is out of touch with me as a student?  Please don't try to make me feel inferior as a piano player.  I can play other scales but I am a perfectionist!  I'm also a retired court reporter so that might explain my perfection, which I credit my reporting career success as being a child piano player.   I am not out of touch with anything that is tangible.

[keypeg]

If your goal is simply to learn to play the piano with some mild degree of skill that is one thing. If on the other hand your goal is to pursue a professional career in music, then it becomes important to have a teacher who knows the right people, the right recitals, the important competitions, good connections at some major conservatories.

If your goal is to possibly pursue a professional career in music, (remembering we're talking about older starters), and if you are also starting a new instrument, then you do NOT look for a teacher who knows the right people/ recitals/ connections.  The only way to get at such a goal, which entails being able to play well, is to first get the foundations of playing.  So the first teacher is someone who can build your skill in playing that particular instrument, and give you the knowledge you need.  Then you go on to the second kind of teacher.  No?

[kellyc]

Hi Keypeg: I agree with you totally  if the conditions you describe are in place. But if I read the original posters question correctly "How do you really know if your teacher is good/excellent if you have never had another perspective?", it makes no mention of being an older student. And if I might add, remember I said many possible categories, so ill change my two categories. Let us assume you either want to learn the play the classics, or you want to learn to play jazz. What you want will change very much what a good teacher is. Hope that clarifies what I'm trying to say. I do appreciate the point you made and will keep it in mind.

Kelly

[mcdiddy1]

I thin when you do not have a perspective of what good teaching is compared to bad teaching it is difficult for a student to see  the difference. Ultimately all students use to determine if a student is good is if the teacher is nice and organized. Students with no previous experience tend to not have the background to determine if the knowledge is valid or not.

I was teaching in a high school in a program where the teacher was know to yell at the students and dismissed for not being effective, From the students perspective the teacher was a good one. Terrible teachers are easy to determine because the student feels unmotivated, unprepared, and feels worse about themselves.

The difference between good and excellent is closer but to me the difference is an excellent teacher connects with the student on an individual personal level and has a seemingly endless number of teaching skills that make sense and work. I think you can tell you have an excellent teacher when you go into the lesson and the teacher treats you as a person, not a paycheck, and uses multiple creative ways of explaining and problem solving.

[fleetfingers]

well, my teacher is very talented, I have no doubt about that. I do have some doubts about their ability to teach in an effective way.

I feel like my lessons are all over the map (from week to week) Also, there have been times where I have asked for feedback on songs (and gotten the reply, "it sounds good to me") avoiding any real critique or suggestions on how I can approve it. I know I am not that good!

I am always told (by my teacher) that I am progressing very quickly and to just keep doing what I am a doing... fine I guess, but sometimes I wonder if my progress is due to the amount of hard work and hours I have put in and nothing else. I guess I am sounding ungrateful, I mean, I am learning piano... I just hope it's the best possible way, and that is hard to know if you have no comparison.

Not sure if this is the case with you, but I just switched teachers for one my kids because it was always praise and no honest feedback. It bothered me once I realized that this teacher was trying to flatter me by always mentioning my child's quick progress.

Interesting that your teacher doesn't have specific things to critique. I mean, I can pick apart my students' playing to no end. I am nice about it, but I point out weak spots and give them advice on how to work it out. I write down assignments, so they know what to practice, which also helps me to acknowledge the work they did during the week. The "all over the map" thing would drive me nuts as a student. That is, if you mean he doesn't follow up on assignments or switches focuses too often. When a student works hard to prepare for a lesson, he/she is expecting some honest, encouraging, and helpful feedback. Otherwise, why have a teacher? Even if everything sounds good, he should tell you the specifics of why it sounds good and what you're doing right.

Obviously, I don't know your teacher, and you will have to decide if he is a good match for you. One thing you can do is ask yourself how you feel after your lessons: Do you see your music in a new light? Are your goals clearer? Is your practicing more efficient because of something he taught you/demonstrated/explained? Do you look forward to each lesson? Does he have high expectations for your future? Do you feel that he anticipates your lessons - to hear you play and see how you've improved?

[dcstudio]

Glad you're here - however, this is spoken like ultimate words of wisdom, and while there is wisdom within it and truth, it is extremely age-specific, not necessarily musically-developed-specific.  Almost none of this would hold the same water for a 3-teenager yr. old.  And, while the OP may indeed be an adult in human years, in musical/student years this is a different story, actually, and one of the biggest things that can get in the way of an adult student's progress with a teacher is thinking "I am an adult, I know best (or "should" know best since I'm an adult) and I expect this this and this."   That is not to say intellect and pragmatism shouldn't be employed because they should, but the entire situation here revolves around a musically young student, regardless of human age.  

So, yes, as adults there are faculties of reasoning and observation that can work in our favor beyond what younger humans may have, but just because you are doubting something doesn't mean your doubts are true!  And, just because we all have to be the one to put in the individual work and that's the bottom line for everybody, doesn't mean that an adult is more "responsible" for their own education any more than a 3 year old would be!  We all learn through experience and being an adult doesn't make somebody automatically musically wise!  That's the whole point!  While teachers may or may not have a fuller perspective on an individual in personal ways, and while a teacher may or may not make all of the "right" decisions, it's perfectly acceptable, I believe, to be able to depend on a teacher's perspective as being fuller than a student's and that, yes, there is a certain point to that where the student must be willing to trust in the teacher's greater perspective.

As people, we are ultimately responsible for our own sense of values and ability to survive, but as we are growing into that it's ultimately considered acceptable to have loving parents in one's life who can be relied upon in profound ways.  Metaphorically, I believe much relates to developing as a musician.

lol--sorry m1469.  I was addressing the OP--who is an adult, and may not be musically developed but still has the right to choose his own teacher.   If he has doubts, maybe checking out a new teacher will alleviate some of them, that's all I meant.  not really sure what I said that upset you but I didn't mean to sound like a "soothsayer" again.  lol.  I know you don't like it when I do that. ha ha    I will strive to be more humble in these strings.  You have a valid point there...

[m1469]

lol--sorry m1469.  I was addressing the OP--who is an adult, and may not be musically developed but still has the right to choose his own teacher.   If he has doubts, maybe checking out a new teacher will alleviate some of them, that's all I meant.  not really sure what I said that upset you but I didn't mean to sound like a "soothsayer" again.  lol.  I know you don't like it when I do that. ha ha    I will strive to be more humble in these strings.  You have a valid point there...

Yes, I've had three yr. olds "choose" me.  The main point though is that there is a difference between choosing a teacher and being responsible for one's entire education, as though the student knows exactly what needs to be learned, how it needs to be learned, where the information is going to come from and in what form.  I don't believe that means a student becomes a complete non-entity or a dummy who doesn't think or follow hunches, etc., but that's a different subject.  

My main reason for saying anything about it is because it's that very sense of false responsibility (and false sense of knowledge) which can create an obstacle in learning.  Because of my own path, I admittedly do feel sometimes that I need to speak up about things that I feel many other people don't necessarily have a first-hand perspective on.  

[dcstudio]

in my path -- I tended to blame my obstacles in learning to those who taught me.  It was never me who did not practice or pay attention--it was a poor teacher.  Sure she assigned theory and technique--i just never did it.   

When I got to college I was told it was my earlier teacher's fault that I had obstacles--until a professor explained in no uncertain terms that ultimately I was responsible for learning as an adult what I had failed to learn as a child--for whatever reason.  forgive me m1469--I did not explain my words very well.



 

[m1469]

in my path -- I tended to blame my obstacles in learning to those who taught me.  It was never me who did not practice or pay attention--it was a poor teacher.  Sure she assigned theory and technique--i just never did it.  

When I got to college I was told it was my earlier teacher's fault that I had obstacles--until a professor explained in no uncertain terms that ultimately I was responsible for learning as an adult what I had failed to learn as a child--for whatever reason.  forgive me m1469--I did not explain my words very well.



 

Sounds like you learned how to listen to your teacher.

[dcstudio]

Sounds like you learned how to listen to your teacher.

Yes, exactly!   then there was no more blame. 

[loops]

here's why I think my teacher is good for me. (my perspective: I started from scratch as an adult, I have been learning piano about 9 years, and I work full time).

* I get a wide choice of pieces to learn that he can teach me, and he has very good taste. The musical content is high quality.
* The pieces push the boundary - my boundary - in some way.  I have the psychology to work hardest on things I find challenging. He knows if he says I'm maybe too old for some fast finger piece, I'll work twice as hard on it.
* He knows when I've got all I'm going to get out a piece, and moves it on.
* He starts with correcting the major errors that can be corrected, and he knows some things will come only later.
* He understands that at my place of work, everything I do is assessed by someone, and so my musical development has to be free from that.
* His intellectual stamina is as OTT as mine is. He is quite capable of spending an hour on a few bars of Bach...
* From time to time I won't have a chance to practice as I'll have been travelling for work. This is when I get alternative lessons, on musicality in Chopin, or on composition, or ..... 3 bars of Bach...
* I am a truly terrible sight reader (but excellent memoriser) and a poor improviser (but am starting to compose). But he he helps me plug away at it without complaint.

I think I can say that musically, he is my best friend. He endures the worst with me and enjoys the best with me, and I never feel judged -- he's too busy to invest overly emotionally in me, and ultimately it doesn't really matter if I have any talent or not!!! My goal is to develop that part of my brain, mind and psyche that is undeveloped, and I am achieving that. (Am I peculiar? maybe don't answer that!!!)

[keypeg]

I wonder if coffee-guy is still around?  If so:

Some of your situation sounds similar to things that I came in with in my first lessons as an adult.  You already had a smattering of skills from playing other instruments.  And maybe you were also self-taught in those other instruments?  This was my situation.  What I knew was all over the place, and I seemed to know some things when I didn't actually have the underpinnings, but that wasn't always apparent.  The new instrument I took up was violin, where you don't have a keyboard's pile of notes.  Example: I would take home the sheet music and come back playing it, so nobody knew that I didn't really know notes.  Or I would put expression into my playing since as an amateur I have always done that with music, but it was however I could - I had no idea about technique.  All the things that people who have had lessons with decent teachers know, I had never experienced: learning note names, how to approach pieces in practicing, that technique is a particular focus and gets developed gradually.  At the same time, I seemed to have these things in some measure, because I was coming back playing new music I'd been assigned expressively.  Once I hit the intermediate level it bit me in the rear, because I didn't have the skills to support me.  That is, I am musically enough that I wanted to do something with these pieces, and I couldn't.  My lessons started flopping around at that stage - a similar feeling of trying to find direction - like what you are describing.  The solution was to finally talk it out with my teacher and set totally different goals.  It's possible that there may be some answers for you in all this.

My conclusion for me is that what my lessons have to be about is not getting pieces to sound nice, but getting underlying skills and knowledge going from the bottom up.  There can be pieces, of course.  In fact, how do we do music without pieces?  But underneath it all, there should be an underlying order, where I will be learning skill 1, skill 2, skill 3 (not rigidly).  When I practice at home, that is what I focus on.  When I go to a lesson, that is part of what my teacher listens for.  Additionally, I need to know how to get this skill, and how to put it into my pieces.  How do I practice it?  How do I organize it over the day, and over the week?  What am I aiming for?  The reason I say "from the bottom up" is because it is too hard to figure out what I do and don't know, so the safest thing is to just get at each thing from scratch.  Even if I do have it, it may not be the best way to go about things.

An important thing here is that the goals are actually out in the open.  You cannot just come to lessons and hope that your teacher will aim for such things. He won't know what your goals are - it might be that you just want to mostly work on pieces for the sake of pieces, because many older students want that.  The things that you can do might hide what you cannot do, or maybe whatever way you have developed in winging it seems good enough.  If it's not defined, then things just won't happen.   Like, in your posts, you write about learning to sight read.  Is this an actual goal that has been set up with your teacher?  And if there are other things that support sight reading like maybe theory or whatever, is that set up?  Strategies for getting there?

It's after that, that you can start talking about good teachers, because if the teacher cannot help you with those goals, then this would not be a good teacher for you.  Supposing that he only knows how to say "This piece sounds ok.", "The middle part is sloppy (but I can't tell you how to fix it.)" or "Remember that it's F# in measure 7." - I mean, only gives that kind of feedback on pieces, and can't do more - that's not enough.  But you can't tell about a teacher if the goals aren't out in the open first.

[coffee_guy]

I wonder if coffee-guy is still around?  If so:

Some of your situation sounds similar to things that I came in with in my first lessons as an adult.  You already had a smattering of skills from playing other instruments.  And maybe you were also self-taught in those other instruments?  This was my situation.  What I knew was all over the place, and I seemed to know some things when I didn't actually have the underpinnings, but that wasn't always apparent.  The new instrument I took up was violin, where you don't have a keyboard's pile of notes.  Example: I would take home the sheet music and come back playing it, so nobody knew that I didn't really know notes.  Or I would put expression into my playing since as an amateur I have always done that with music, but it was however I could - I had no idea about technique.  All the things that people who have had lessons with decent teachers know, I had never experienced: learning note names, how to approach pieces in practicing, that technique is a particular focus and gets developed gradually.  At the same time, I seemed to have these things in some measure, because I was coming back playing new music I'd been assigned expressively.  Once I hit the intermediate level it bit me in the rear, because I didn't have the skills to support me.  That is, I am musically enough that I wanted to do something with these pieces, and I couldn't.  My lessons started flopping around at that stage - a similar feeling of trying to find direction - like what you are describing.  The solution was to finally talk it out with my teacher and set totally different goals.  It's possible that there may be some answers for you in all this.

My conclusion for me is that what my lessons have to be about is not getting pieces to sound nice, but getting underlying skills and knowledge going from the bottom up.  There can be pieces, of course.  In fact, how do we do music without pieces?  But underneath it all, there should be an underlying order, where I will be learning skill 1, skill 2, skill 3 (not rigidly).  When I practice at home, that is what I focus on.  When I go to a lesson, that is part of what my teacher listens for.  Additionally, I need to know how to get this skill, and how to put it into my pieces.  How do I practice it?  How do I organize it over the day, and over the week?  What am I aiming for?  The reason I say "from the bottom up" is because it is too hard to figure out what I do and don't know, so the safest thing is to just get at each thing from scratch.  Even if I do have it, it may not be the best way to go about things.

An important thing here is that the goals are actually out in the open.  You cannot just come to lessons and hope that your teacher will aim for such things. He won't know what your goals are - it might be that you just want to mostly work on pieces for the sake of pieces, because many older students want that.  The things that you can do might hide what you cannot do, or maybe whatever way you have developed in winging it seems good enough.  If it's not defined, then things just won't happen.   Like, in your posts, you write about learning to sight read.  Is this an actual goal that has been set up with your teacher?  And if there are other things that support sight reading like maybe theory or whatever, is that set up?  Strategies for getting there?

It's after that, that you can start talking about good teachers, because if the teacher cannot help you with those goals, then this would not be a good teacher for you.  Supposing that he only knows how to say "This piece sounds ok.", "The middle part is sloppy (but I can't tell you how to fix it.)" or "Remember that it's F# in measure 7." - I mean, only gives that kind of feedback on pieces, and can't do more - that's not enough.  But you can't tell about a teacher if the goals aren't out in the open first.

there is a lot that rings true from his post. I think part of the problem(s) is that my goals have evolved since I now am taking this more serious, I also don't think my teacher an I have ever openly discussed my goals (besides I want to learn to play piano).

Next weekend, if I get time, I will post a few videos of myself playing and ask for honest feedback on my progress thus far.

Also, part of me needs to realize that I have only been playing piano for 8 months and that is not enough time to fully understand anything about this instrument or the relationship I am creating with it. I also don/t know how far I can truly take my playing without burning out. I am not sure I can maintain the same level of enthusiasm as I did the last 8 months.

[keypeg]

Coffeeguy, are you able to define your goals at present?  I don't mean in the sense of what kind of music you will be able to play eventually, but every concrete things like being able to read music.  And if you have a goal like being able to read music, can you refine that down to even more specific things within that?  I'm going somewhere here (hopefully).