Digital pianos

[ricwyk]

Do anyone think practicing on a digital piano is the same as on a real piano.

I move into vancouver lately, and i need a piano at home to pratice. I want to finish my rcm and i am at grade 6 now.

Today i went to a piano dealer. there i wanted to buy a Kawai. ( CAD$ 6000, but i can return it after 2 years and get back $3000 )

But there i also tried on some fancy digital pianos, it feels good ( but not exactly the same feeling i got playing on pianos ). And the dealer told me the digital piano was sent to be tested by the RCM examinors, and the examinors approved it was good for RCM grade 1-6 study.

Now i am deciding whether to buy the $ 6000 or $ 1700.

P.S. i already own one piano (but not in the place i am living now )

plus i may leave where i am living now coz i have to go to university after 3 years.

so i dont want to pay so much for a piano i will use only for 3 years, however the digital one is portable.( i think )
but still, i am afraid that the digital piano will affect and  hinder my study.

plz help

[bttay]

In my opion, digital piano can never be equal to acoustic piano in terms of tone and expression. The sounds of a digital piano are pre-recorded in a studio. To bring the cost of production down, the number of sound to be recorded and stored in the memory is very limited thus, you won't get very expressive tone out of a digital piano.

Furthermore if you understand that the tone of an acoustic piano can be altered by the acceleration of the hammer, you would know that that can't be achieved on digital pianos as digital pianos produce sounds based only on the velocity of the key being pressed. The acceleration of the key does not affect the tone on a digital piano.

[cziffra777]

If given a choice, I'd always opt for the real piano. Even a low quality real piano is better than the best digital I've played. You just can't learn to do certain things properly, such as pedalling, on a digital.

[bernhard]

Even a low quality real piano is better than the best digital I've played. You just can't learn to do certain things properly, such as pedalling, on a digital.

This is not true. (Have you ever played on a Chalen? Give me a Clavinova any time! )

The top range of digital pianos will always be superior to the lowest range of acoustic pianos.

In fact a top of range digital piano is preferable to an upright acoustic piano because it will simulate double escapement (which an upright does not have), will have a sostenuto pedal (which an upright does not have) and the left pedal will simulate a true una corda effect (which in an upright is simply a muffler)

A digital piano will also have many advantages over an acoustic piano:

1.      It is never out of tune.

2.      It will give a number of different tunings at the press of a button.

3.      It will have recording facilities. This is particularly useful in the context of learning/teaching, since you can record the right hand on one track and play along the left hand. You can also change the tempo of the recording, so you can play it at different speeds.

4.      You can practice with headphones.

5.      You can transpose at the touch of a button.

6.      This is the least important advantage for me personally, but some people love it: you can have all sorts of different sounds.

Of course if you are comparing a top range digital with a top range grand piano (Bosendorfer, Steinway, Fazioli), then obviously the top range acoustic is preferable.

Also the lowest range of digitals willsupport your opinion. However, have you ever played a Yamaha Grand touch series? It will blow your mind off.

But why choose? Get both! (I have both and use them for different purposes).

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[rlefebvr]

If you already own a piano, getting a good and I stress good digital makes a lot of sense for the reasons mentioned above.

You don't even have to spend much to get a good one. After awhile most of the price change is for the gadgets, but the sound and hammer action stays the same. Just do not get a low end one.

Does it beat the real thing. Well, not really, but as long as you can get your hands on a real one once in awhile, it certainly won't hurt you.

I actually changed my Upright for a digital and I have never looked back. Greatest buy I ever made. Fits in my house without taking it over, I can play at night when the family is asleep. I can practice without disturbing the cats outside(joke) and I can record to see how I sound among other advantages.

This would not have been the case 5 years ago, but the standard today is very high.

[in_love_with_liszt]

Digital Pianos-

Pros:

• Helps technique (when used the way I do)
• Never out of tune
• Small, space space saving, easily moveable
• Record function (on most models)
• Quick action (most models)

Cons:

• Bad for touch
• Plastic keys (easliy get sweaty, slippery, break if played too hard)
• Some models are flimsy and break easily
• Limited palette of tone colors you can produce
• Sometimes constructed with odd dimensions (higher/lower keyboard than most pianos)

One thing I can't emphasize enough is how flimsy some models can be. I went through six Clavinovas one year.

[ricwyk]

actually, i decided to choose an acoustic. Becoz a fancy digital costs more than an intermediate acoustic.

( i tried a Clavinovas, it was sooooo good, but it costs like CAN$ 4000 . I was amazed by what technologies can do...>< )

so i rent a Russian made upright, priced CAN$ 3000, $ 50 rental per month.

I like the upright, the sound is better than some janpanese made (in my opinon) and the bass is quite powerful.

[in_love_with_liszt]

Good choice!

[ChristmasCarol]

I love my Yamaha Clavinova.  My husband loves his Yamaha P250.  We live on a lake in a small cottage.  Playing with head phones is a nice intimate feel and allows the playing to be any time day or night.  Acoustic pianos are tough to keep in great playing shape and very expensive.    I owned fine acoustic pianos - Steinway and Barock.  They were never quite up to snuff it seemed.  I'm also a singer and frankly love the aspect of an instrument that is always in tune.  I say go for the digital.

[elephant]

I´m in a similar postions - I´m moving out of my parents house, and need something to practise on. Ideally I want a good acoustic, but as I will probably move a lot around, and like to practise at strange times of the day, I think a digital is the way to go.

My problem Is that I have never played a digital that I really liked. I´ve mostly played Clavinovas, but found their action "plasticy" and not too realistic. I guess the spring resistance is at fault.

Btw, Bernhard, what is double escapement? What kind of digital problem do you recommend? (I COULD stretch to CLP-170 price territory.)

[Seaside_Lee]

Hi

I own a "Yammie CLP 170" in polished ebony and I can honestly say I absolutely love it!

Our babysitters daughter has played for years and years and was very anti digital pianos but, when she pops round to our house to see her mum I cannot get her off it.


regards


Lee

P.S its a good job it has a headphone socket or two as my wife even complains about the noise I make  "when I am thumping the keys"...erm maybe I need to trade her in !...lol

[elephant]

It´s very interesting that you own and anjoy the CLP-170, Seaside_Lee. How do you rate its key action compared to the other CLPs? All CLPs up to the CLP-150 has the same Yamaha action I complained about in my recent post, and the CLP 175 has yet another action. I have not managed to love eather of those.  Does it have the same kind of shrill sound in the second octave above middle C as the CLP-175? Does iAFC make a big improvement to the sound?

[Seaside_Lee]

Hi Elephant

I can't really answer your questions as I was recommended by a friend to buy the 170 ...I tried it...liked it ...and bought it (at an internet matched price promise from my local piano dealer which swung the deal )

I have a Casio Privia PX100 weighted keyboard that I practise on at work (good job I own my own business)
which is great for practising on ...but, the Yammie just blows it away.

I really like the key action ..it is quite heavy (it is the new G3 keyboard) but, very sensitive to my touch.

the IAFC?...hmmm....I have laminate flooring in the room it is in and I do tend to leave it off as everything is just too powerful...and I find I can over sustain very, very  easily....yikes!

Can't say I have really noticed the shrill...if I have one gripe with my "baby" it would be the C 2 octaves below middle C sometimes gives a sort of doii-iing sound (hard to explain?)



hope that helps?

regards


Lee


Now if I could just get that thumping sound from the keys toned down...or get rid of the miss...Oh, never mind...

[monk]

At home I have a Yamaha Gran-Touch GT 1 since 1996.

It never needed any repairs since and does it's job great! It's pretty expensive (about 5500 Euros), but it has a real grand piano action with wooden keys (really no difference in feel to some real Yamaha grands!). Only the tone production is digital. And it is really a plain-vanilla piano: only 1 sound and a little reverb - no other knobs and buttons. (But sound and midi in-/output jackets.)

But since the sound is not really 100% realistic (too short sustain of tones, too little dynamic & soundwise range especially in ff, no real resonance), it spoils technique if one practices mostly on it.

So I practice on an external real piano normally, and only if there's no other possibility (or if I want to doodle at 3 am), then I use my digital piano.

But if one doesn't want to perform professionally, I wholeheartedly recommend the Gran Touch.

Best Wishes,
Monk

[Chrysalis]

yamaha p120 with headphones = GG

i always put the pedal sustain up to max to get my pedaling quite right and it works on acoustic one.
If you get a yamaha clavinova or p120 and u can play that well you can do the same trick on an acoustic one. I play both, I know from both sides good arguments

in the matter of sound: nothing can beat a real acoustic natural sound

[bernhard]

Btw, Bernhard, what is double escapement? What kind of digital problem do you recommend? (I COULD stretch to CLP-170 price territory.)

When you press a key, a quite complex mechanism sends the hammer towards the string. The hammer then must be “free” of the key, otherwise, as you pressed on, the hammer wouldn’t come back and would stop the key from vibrating. The part of the mechanism that allows this to happen (the hammer getting free of the key influence) is called “escapement”. In grand pianos, where the hammer comes back through gravity, you have a “double escapement” mechanism first patented by Erard in the 1800s. Its great advantage over the single escapement mechanism (used in uprights) is that it allows the hammer to strike a second time without waiting for the key to rise to its normal position of rest This allows for fast repeated notes.

Have a look here for some great pictures and animations:

https://www.musicplay.com/action/action.html

and here:

https://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000A6881-13ED-1C6B-84A9809EC588EF21

In Mozart’s and Beethoven’s  time, the piano action was such that it actually limited severely the speed at which repeated notes could be produced. It was only in 1821 that Erard patented the double escapement mechanism (used to this day) that allows for pretty much infinite speed on repeated notes – or at least for far superior speed than human fingers can produce. So after 1821, the limit to speed was no more the piano mechanism but the performer’s body.

Only Grand pianos have a double escapement, and you can actually feel it as a light click before the key reaches the keybed. This means that you do not need to press the key all the way to the keybed. In fact after you go through the “click” nothing you do to the key will interfere in the sound you get. But this is another story.

In the Yamaha grandtouch series  - which has a real piano action – the double escapement will be there and can be felt, so as far as finger sensitivity is concerned, the GT series is pretty much the same as the real thing, and in my opinion better than an acoustic upright piano which will not lead to the development of this kind of sensitivity (one of the reasons a student who is seriously contemplating a performing career must practise in a grand piano, since the grand action enables repetition more effectively than the upright. In an upright piano, the key must be allowed to rise again a minimum distance, before you can repeat a note. If the key is not allowed to rise this full distance, depressing again will not sound the note. On a modern grand action, all that is necessary is to release the weight of the finger on the key, and the note can be repeated.

As for recommending a digital, it really depends on what you want and how much you are prepared to spend. Both Roland and Yamaha are very good. The most expensive models tend to be the better. I have a Yamaha CLP 970, and a Yamaha P60 (which I use when travelling), and I am fully satisfied with both.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Max]

I've got a CLP 910. The action is exquisite, it's very very realistic, and the sound variety you can make is astonishing - to make it even more realistic you can slightly uptune or downtune the whole thing, to give it a slightly heavier or lighter tone (and it can be changed back easily). The 1** models have a very light action - but the 'older' ones have a much better, more heavy action - my teacher has a StD, and to be honest this digital has a heavier action than that!

[elephant]

Thx for the insight. I think I have read somewhere that Yamaha uses springs to similate the weight of the key, while Roland forces you to "accelerate a weight", resulting a more accurate feel. Is this true?

Also, I don´t know how I managed to write "digital problem"... A freudian slip?

[monk]

Digital piano actions with springs in them are not good.

Springs are wearing out, and so the feel alters with time (gets lighter and inaccurate).

My old Clavinova from 1988 had springs.

Newer DPs with good keyboards have no springs in them. The Yamaha P80 (and similar types like P90 etc.) have a spring-less action which is very reliable and absolutely constant in feel.

For gigs where no piano is available, I always take my trusty P80 with me. Is also very lightweight!

Best Wishes,
Monk

[Max]

Thx for the insight. I think I have read somewhere that Yamaha uses springs to similate the weight of the key, while Roland forces you to "accelerate a weight", resulting a more accurate feel. Is this true?

Also, I don´t know how I managed to write "digital problem"... A freudian slip?

I thought it was the other way round. Well my one definatly has a weighted hammer action (as the dealer gave me a see through set of 3 keys so you can actually see them...interesting conversation piece).

[elephant]

My Yamaha S90, which has the same keybed as the P series and Clavinovas up to CLP-150, except ungraded (it´s as light as the P series' upper octaves across the whole keyboard), is indeed constant in feel, and that, I feel, is the problem. You don´t need to use any more force to achieve a higher velocity, you just have to hit the key faster. The force from the key and up towards the finger when depressed is also quite strong. On a real piano, on the other hand, you are forced to accelerate the whole, long wooden key, making it necessary to use a lot more force to achieve higher velocities, but actually keeping the key depressed is quite easy.

At least this is what I think, and I´m after a digital piano with the "real" kind of action. I would love a GT2, but I´m afraid it´s a bit out of my price range...