Most difficult piano technique? Most difficult part of playing our instrument?

[werq34ac]

What do you feel is the most ridiculously difficult piano technique?
And by the way, technique includes everything from octave glissandos to control of color.


And also, what do you feel is the hardest part of being a pianist? Other than being totally broke and not having a job... and the ridiculous competitiveness of other pianists.

[pianoplayjl]

Tremolos, repeated notes, double octaves.

[danhuyle]

Glissando in 3rd and 6th (For example Liszt Paganini Etude 5)
Did you see Marc Andre Hamelin's glissando in his Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody no2 Cadenza?

Color changes, creating tension, playing fast, playing soft (pp,ppp,p, mp), sustain pedal without smudging.

[49410enrique]

.

[pianoplayjl]

Creating Expression and your own interpretation.

[werq34ac]

Creating Expression and your own interpretation.

Creating expression and interpretation are not particularly technical aspects. We use technique in order to create expression and interpretation, but wouldn't you say that those are the emotional and intellectual aspects of piano playing rather than the physical?

Tremolos, repeated notes, double octaves.

Double octaves aren't that bad...
Repeated notes depend on the piano, but yes controlling them can be a challenge.
Tremolos? You really think so? Placing your fingers and the right place and rotating your wrist is all there is to it isn't it..

Glissando in 3rd and 6th (For example Liszt Paganini Etude 5)
Did you see Marc Andre Hamelin's glissando in his Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody no2 Cadenza?

Color changes, creating tension, playing fast, playing soft (pp,ppp,p, mp), sustain pedal without smudging.

3rd glissandos are much easier than a 3rds scale, I mean if you look at Alborada Del Gracioso, I found the repeated notes much more difficult than the glissandi.. and 6th glissandos are no where near as difficult to pull of as an octave glissando.

As for sustain pedal without smudging, it's really a matter of listening isn't it? Color changes and creating tension, if you know what you are doing, aren't particularly scary things if you ask me.

[sucom]

I must admit, I found the repeated notes in Alborada del Gracioso challenging too and I wasn't especially keen on the glissandi - they caused my fingers to bleed when I first practised them.

[octavius_trillson]

The technique required to play Chopin Etude Op.10 No.2, I don't know the correct name for it. I actually gave up trying to learn this piece, I'll probably give it a shot in about 5 years.

[pianoplayjl]

The technique required to play Chopin Etude Op.10 No.2, I don't know the correct name for it. I actually gave up trying to learn this piece, I'll probably give it a shot in about 5 years.

Playing rapid chromatic scale with 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers?

[werq34ac]

I must admit, I found the repeated notes in Alborada del Gracioso challenging too and I wasn't especially keen on the glissandi - they caused my fingers to bleed when I first practised them.

Fingers bleeding? I didn't have anything like that.. though I did find them a little painful at first. I think the trick is to use as much fingernail as possible. Then again, I can do an octave glissando on most pianos without too much trouble so maybe it depends person to person.

[octavius_trillson]

Playing rapid chromatic scale with 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers?

Yes that, I found it hard to play them smoothly. Maybe I just gave up too soon 

[sucom]

Fingers bleeding? I didn't have anything like that.. though I did find them a little painful at first. I think the trick is to use as much fingernail as possible. Then again, I can do an octave glissando on most pianos without too much trouble so maybe it depends person to person.

My fourth finger bled when first trying the glissandi with 4ths ascending.  I didn't have a problem with descending and I didn't find the 3rds so bad but absolutely hated practising the ascending 4ths.  The problem area was where the nail joins the skin at the base of the nail and I have always considered it to be due to the angle of the hand and the depth of my nail versus the depth of the piano keys.  The skin healed up and the area eventually became less sensitive but I found the whole process pretty unpleasant at the time. When you know you HAVE to do something, you just grit your teeth and do it, albeit for a time with a plaster on your finger!

Pulling off the octave glissandi in the Waldstein is tricky too but at least it doesn't cause any pain! The thirds and double octaves in Dohnanyi's Rhapsody in C took quite a bit of practice too but I thoroughly enjoyed the challenge of those.

[pianoplayjl]

The technique required to play Chopin Etude Op.10 No.2, I don't know the correct name for it. I actually gave up trying to learn this piece, I'll probably give it a shot in about 5 years.

You know, that is the purpose of the etude. To master the particular difficulty found in piano playing.

Creating expression and interpretation are not particularly technical aspects. We use technique in order to create expression and interpretation, but wouldn't you say that those are the emotional and intellectual aspects of piano playing rather than the physical?
Double octaves aren't that bad...
Repeated notes depend on the piano, but yes controlling them can be a challenge.
Tremolos? You really think so? Placing your fingers and the right place and rotating your wrist is all there is to it isn't it..

Yes, expression and interpretation are not technical aspects, now come to think of it. Misread the question.
Double ocataves are not that bad but I keep missing or play wrong notes even though I span a 10th. It happens half the time I practice scales.
Tremolos are hell.

[octavius_trillson]

You know, that is the purpose of the etude. To master the particular difficulty found in piano playing.

Yes I know but maybe I'll leave that particular aspect of piano technique until I'm a bit better. The pieces I'm learning don't really involve that technique so it's not a priority to master it right now. To be honest I haven't been able to learn a single Chopin Etude, I try but I always end up giving up in favour of learning something I like more. I tried Op.10 1,2,3,4 Op.25 11

[werq34ac]

My fourth finger bled when first trying the glissandi with 4ths ascending.  I didn't have a problem with descending and I didn't find the 3rds so bad but absolutely hated practising the ascending 4ths.  The problem area was where the nail joins the skin at the base of the nail and I have always considered it to be due to the angle of the hand and the depth of my nail versus the depth of the piano keys.  The skin healed up and the area eventually became less sensitive but I found the whole process pretty unpleasant at the time. When you know you HAVE to do something, you just grit your teeth and do it, albeit for a time with a plaster on your finger!

Pulling off the octave glissandi in the Waldstein is tricky too but at least it doesn't cause any pain! The thirds and double octaves in Dohnanyi's Rhapsody in C took quite a bit of practice too but I thoroughly enjoyed the challenge of those.

Hmm.. Maybe my fingernails are longer than yours... I can usually play the 4ths glissando upwards without touching my skin. Also, my wrist is at a very awkward angle when I play that glissando. I think I actually twist my body in order to play it at that angle..

Yeah octave glissandos used to be really painful, but the skin hardens up over time.

You know, that is the purpose of the etude. To master the particular difficulty found in piano playing.


Yes, expression and interpretation are not technical aspects, now come to think of it. Misread the question.
Double ocataves are not that bad but I keep missing or play wrong notes even though I span a 10th. It happens half the time I practice scales.
Tremolos are hell.

Then again, I did also ask the most difficult part of playing the piano, so your answer is still valid. Though it should be clear that the capability to express ourselves is very much a technical aspect of piano playing.

You are probably tensing up for your tremolos. Just relax and rotate your wrist.

[pianoplayjl]

You are probably tensing up for your tremolos. Just relax and rotate your wrist.

I've been doing that! maybe I'm not the guy for tremolos.

[philb]

Yes I know but maybe I'll leave that particular aspect of piano technique until I'm a bit better. The pieces I'm learning don't really involve that technique so it's not a priority to master it right now. To be honest I haven't been able to learn a single Chopin Etude, I try but I always end up giving up in favour of learning something I like more. I tried Op.10 1,2,3,4 Op.25 11

The whole point of the Chopin Etudes are to work on technical difficulties. You need to keep pushing until you have the technique to play it, and by that time you have mastered it.

[werq34ac]

I've been doing that! maybe I'm not the guy for tremolos.

hmmm can you post a video of you doing a tremolo? I might be able to help you out.

The whole point of the Chopin Etudes are to work on technical difficulties. You need to keep pushing until you have the technique to play it, and by that time you have mastered it.

Well sometimes, IT'S JUST TOO FREAKING HARD. Although these etudes are for developing the technique, it's possible that they are currently out of reach. Theoretically, if they could spend an unlimited amount of time on these etudes, then it's definitely learnable at any level, and one can develop the technique. On the other hand, wouldn't this immense amount of time be better spent learning more accessible pieces? It would be more musically fulfilling and one would develop a more well-rounded technique rather than skill in just one or two techniques found in a single Chopin etude. I'm not saying that one shouldn't play them, just to learn other pieces until their technique is more solid in order to play them without as much frustration.

[pianoplayjl]

hmmm can you post a video of you doing a tremolo? I might be able to help you out.

Thanks but no thanks. I'll try to work my way up.

[octavius_trillson]

Well sometimes, IT'S JUST TOO FREAKING HARD. Although these etudes are for developing the technique, it's possible that they are currently out of reach. Theoretically, if they could spend an unlimited amount of time on these etudes, then it's definitely learnable at any level, and one can develop the technique. On the other hand, wouldn't this immense amount of time be better spent learning more accessible pieces? It would be more musically fulfilling and one would develop a more well-rounded technique rather than skill in just one or two techniques found in a single Chopin etude. I'm not saying that one shouldn't play them, just to learn other pieces until their technique is more solid in order to play them without as much frustration.

^^I couldn't agree more, you took the thoughts right out of my head and made a coherent argument.

There are pieces that I've tackled, probably too early, and have had to spend several years trying to master them, but these are always pieces I REALLY like and REALLY want to play and they generally contain a variety of technical challenges as opposed to just one.

Even if I spend several years learning one of these pieces I've effectively killed two, three, four technical birds with one stone in the same time it takes for me to kill one technical bird by learning one Chopin etude (although with the Chopin etude the technical bird would be more thoroughly dead and thereby have less chance of being resurrected as a technical bird zombie).

Also the fact that I like these pieces so much gives me the motivation I need to persist in practice for years on end. I just don't like any one Chopin etude enough to spend that amount of time mastering it. I do intend to learn them but right now they would just consume too much of my time.

[rmbarbosa]

The end of the 1º mouvement of Tchaikowsky piano concert. This is very dificult indeed and make me insane

[black_keys]

The broken octave with alternating hands like 2nd hungarian rhapsody ending and most of transcendental etudes did i call them right ?

[austinarg]

Playing fast grace notes and melody in a single hand at the same time? (Liszt's Chasse-neige comes to mind)

[rachmaninoff_forever]

TRILLING WITH CHORDS (tremolos).

Petrouchka has this everywhere throughout the piece!

[jayeckz]

TRILLING WITH CHORDS (tremolos).

Petrouchka has this everywhere throughout the piece!

Is that really the most difficult technical difficulty you've encountered?

Even within Petrushka, I find so many more things much more difficult.  What do you think of the jumps with the grace chords in the 3rd movement between the repeated chords?  4/5 of the performances I've seen cheat these.  Also, do you consider playing alternating chords more difficult than the voicing required for the piece?

[49410enrique]

p, pp, ppp, quickly (i.e. fast + control), with good voicing, strong (but appropriate for soft volume) or projecting tone.

single hand (usually rh) octave trills/fast notes (i.e 32nd notes half steps- ala scriabin poloanise op 21) not looking forward to that when i finally get around to pony-ing up to that piece.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Is that really the most difficult technical difficulty you've encountered?

Even within Petrushka, I find so many more things much more difficult.  What do you think of the jumps with the grace chords in the 3rd movement between the repeated chords?  4/5 of the performances I've seen cheat these.  Also, do you consider playing alternating chords more difficult than the voicing required for the piece?

I can't play it so I wouldn't know lol.  I've screwed around it a little though.

[thorn]

Relaxation.

Almost everything sounds better, is easier to play and is physiologically better for us when we relax. Certain things, conversely, require tension or are just impossible to play without it in some degree.

The difficulty is knowing what these things are. In my last lesson on Debussy's Poissons d'or I was discussing relaxation with my teacher. There are four bars in this piece that are absolute nightmares (four bars all the same- the LH and RH thumb are trilling, the rest of the RH is playing the melody). My teacher told me tension is unavoidable in these bars due to the speed and dynamic, but that it can all be released in the following bars.

Chopin etudes that have been discussed. Say for example you are learning a language and want to practise your translation skills- you wouldn't start with a newspaper or an adult novel, you'd start with perhaps a couple of pages of a child's story (even that would probably be too complex for initial practise). This is exactly how I see the Chopin etudes. These etudes are NOT for magically developing any part of the piano technique, they are for those who already have the particular technique to consolidate and to push it further.

I would also disagree that any part of piano technique contained in these etudes is "the most difficult". A pianist might be able to manage extended broken chords in a particular passage of a piece of music, yet be uncomfortable/feel out of their depth playing them for the duration of op.10/1- this does not make the technique itself difficult, it makes the respective pieces difficult/easy.

[pts1]

Tremolos, repeated notes, double octaves.

I've read some confused advice about this in this thread.

Tremolos are not played with the wrist.

The entire arm is engaged when playing a tremolo correctly, and if you attempt to play it just from the wrist and forearm, you'll NEVER get it.

Tremolos start with the upper arm and radiate down to the hand and finally the fingers.

You must first develop the sense of engaging the upper arm, and to do this, you have to sit well.

It should almost feel "sloppy" in that you want it to feel very free. Once you accomplish this... and it is a MUST... then try to feel the connection with the upper arm to the fingers.

If you can get this feeling consistently and practice it, you are 90% there!

This, BTW, is the same feeling everyone talks about when they say "playing with the arm".

Practicing fast rotation with the forearm in the air is useless, and not what you want at all!

The first mvmt of the Pathetique has excellent tremolos you can use as an exercise.
I'd avoid the Waldstein at first for learning tremolos, because being a smaller interval, one can "cheat" by NOT really engaging the upper arm. With the larger interval in the Pathetique, its really an excellent vehicle for getting the "feel" for tremolos.

In Hannon, there is a monster of a tremolo exercise which is mostly chords played as tremolos, and it is quite formidable.

Also, all Alberti-like basses are all tremolos really, as well.

And then there are trills which are really "small interval tremolos".

Trills and tremolos are literally every where in classical music, and I would say that if you can make them a main part of your technical training, they will greatly aid scales, and arpeggios (believe it or not) because they directly employ learning to play by engaging the whole arm in varying degrees. 

[roncesvalles]

To me, most difficulties are contrapuntal in nature, arising from complete independence of line and expression.  Problems I have are rapid and accurate passagework of 345 when 1 and 2 are held at my hand's maximum stretch, chromatic scales with 3 and 4 only, and completely nuancing a simple triad into having three different dynamic levels (and, especially, connecting those smoothly to the next chord).  Other difficulties occur for me when there are multiple voices with different subdivisions of a beat at or greater than 7--9 against 7, 10 against 11, etc--it takes extreme concentration for me to pull these off, which takes focus off other aspects of playing.  Playing two trills smoothly in one hand is just beyond my technique, as are 5-4 trills while playing chords with 1-2-3 and trills made by using MG 1 and MD 1 together while the rest of my hands are occupied.   When 3 is a leading contributor to one voice and 5-4 are an independent other voice there can be problems as well.

[jayeckz]

@pts1

2 cases I can think of:
1) There are many different ways to play a tremolo
2) People have a hard time explaining their movements

I think it's a combination of both.  For me I'll play tremolos differently based on the context and the sound I want to achieve.

[pts1]

1) There are many different ways to play a tremolo

There is only one basic way to correctly play a tremolo.

The tremolo starts at the shoulder as a rotational movement and radiates to the hand and fingers.
Once you get the coordination, you notice the freedom and ease of the movement.

Playing it incorrectly by trying to utilize only the forearm or hand and wrist or some combination of these, will result in tightness and difficulty.

Attempting to fight anatomy and physics only results in frustration, pain, injury and defeat.

[newkidintown]

Sadly, I find repeated sixteenths extremely difficult.

Same with 9th+ chords, rhythm (yes, I STILL have trouble with this, sadly), and playing cantabile.

Lately, I've also been going through a little phase where I can't seem to figure out fingerings or hit notes of a chord at the same time. Don't know where that came from, but it's finally starting to go away, thank goodness.