what should i do?

[drazh]

Hi
My teacher says fingers should be flexed during piano playing .but in this forum some experienced guys said fingers should be extended. What should I do ?
Thank you

[sucom]

In general, fingers should be flexed.  However, there will be times, quite a few times, when the fingers may need to extend for certain reaches, but in general, they should be flexed whenever it is possible to do so.

[drazh]

Dear  sucom
But horowitz and argerich for example played with extended fingers
Thanks

[keyboardkat]

Dear  sucom
But horowitz and argerich for example played with extended fingers
Thanks

So did Bolet, in legato passages.   In actuality, if you watched Horowitz, there was no set hand position.   Each passage called for an appropriate response of the hand.   There's a lot of controversy about this.   Some teachers insist on a high wrist, some on a low wrist, etc.   You should follow your teacher's instructions for the time being, but understand that as you become more advanced, there will be variations in this.   We're not talking dogma here, and human beings are not mass-produced.  We are all physically a little different.   What worked for Mr. Horowitz may not work for you.   Horowitz' student Byron Janis said that Horowitz tried to show him how to play that way, with the flat-fingered techique, but it didn't work for him.

But then, Horowitz didn't always use that technique, either.   When he wanted crisp articulation, the fingers were curved.   Perhaps that is what your teacher is working on with you right now, articulation.   After that is mastered, then certain changes may be worked into your technical arsenal.

[kellyc]

Hi: Cant tell you how many times I have heard something like" but Horowitz and Agerich do it like that". Just put that out of your mind totally. There Horowitz and Agerich. Your not. Im not, most people aren't. Do whats right for you. Have a little faith in your teacher. Learn from experience and let some time go by. Be smart and you will find what works for you.

Kelly

[sucom]

The fingers should be flexed whenever possible but as I said in my previous post, they will extend whenever the situation demands, which is likely to be frequently. Fingers will never ALWAYS be extended or ALWAYS flexed and will vary depending on the notes being played at any one time.

There is a time for both, continually changing from moment to moment depending on the demands of the notes.  What I don't like to see is FLAT fingers - they're never helpful.

[countrymath]

extended > flexed

[pianoplayjl]

your fingers should be curled towards your palm.

[jesc]

I'm assuming you're a beginner. For the meantime, just follow the norm and what your teacher tells you. Those instructions, like "flexed all the time" aren't actually restrictions but a way for beginners to get a foothold of something.

But since posts here already revealed to you the varied nature of playing, you can experiment with it on the side. In my experience, both are useful and I shift from one posture to another in accordance to what the passage demands and how I like to play that certain passage.

[countrymath]

Your fingers should be extended. If you flex then, you will be already tensing them.

[drazh]

Dear countrymath
But natural rest position of hand is flexion .
Thanks

[countrymath]

Dear countrymath
But natural rest position of hand is flexion .
Thanks

Yep, but your hands doenst keep natural while playing the piano.

[drazh]

dear countrymath
but most pianist advice to play in a relax and no tension position and flexion is the position of our hands when we are sleeping (absolutely no tension.
thanks

[countrymath]

dear countrymath
but most pianist advice to play in a relax and no tension position and flexion is the position of our hands when we are sleeping (absolutely no tension.
thanks

But we are not sleeping while playing the piano

[drazh]

Dear countrymath
I am sure you are more experienced than my teacher .and that is why I am conf
used. What exactly do you recommend ? Your advice (extended fingers) or my teacher advice
(Flexed finger. )  ? 

[nyiregyhazi]

The important thing is to understand what action is required. When starting with flexed fingers, it's important to realise that the action of playing is going to involve an act of extension of the finger- otherwise you'll be as stiff as hell trying to stop the fingers slipping. When playing with flat fingers, you might start having extended the finger out with activity or it may simply be resting flat on the key. The action from that starting point may be an inward action that starts things curling up slightly, or it may continue to extend the finger outwards, as well as pulling from the knuckle. There are many possibilities- but to speak of curved or flat fingers without also considering what action you are going to perform from that starting point is basically meaningless. It's all down to how you move from there.

Personally, I'm currently working on starting with naturally hanging (slightly curled) fingers that go on to extend out as straight as possible- often finishing close to vertical, as seen with pianists such as Rubinstein and Nyiregyhazi. I've found this to be a very useful action to practise and also very effective to get students' fingers moving (although I don't get them to do quite such an extreme version as I'm working at myself). When starting with curved fingers I think it's very useful to explore the full range of movement from curved to fully extended- rather than stick to the tiny repressed pokes that most pianists suffer from.

[nyiregyhazi]

Also, the idea that either shape is more "natural" or inherently more relaxed is simply a myth. If I've played one note with an action that finished with a near vertical finger, every other finger naturally hangs down in a very flexed position. If I've played one finger very flat, and the other finger are extended out flat too, they can be fully relaxed again and and then kept straight due to their resting against the surface of the keyboard.

The idea that the hand has a single "relaxed" shape is just not true. It all depends on where you are starting from. Many different positions can exist without being forced to occur.

[werq34ac]

If you look at it from a pure physical standpoint...
Flexed when possible>extended

If you look at your arm, elbow, wrist, knuckles, fingers, joints, and fingertips, you will find that playing the piano is utilizing a series of levers (known as our arm) in order to push keys and make sounds. Now then, objects FURTHER away from the fulcrum take more force to move than objects CLOSER to the fulcrum. Our fingertips are that object, so it is easier to push a key when the fingertip is closer to the fulcrum (the joint). THUS it's easier to push a key with a curved finger rather than an extended finger. And I personally don't see any benefits with playing with additional discomfort other than perhaps a different color achieved with flat fingers.

[nyiregyhazi]

If you look at it from a pure physical standpoint...
Flexed when possible>extended

If you look at your arm, elbow, wrist, knuckles, fingers, joints, and fingertips, you will find that playing the piano is utilizing a series of levers (known as our arm) in order to push keys and make sounds. Now then, objects FURTHER away from the fulcrum take more force to move than objects CLOSER to the fulcrum. Our fingertips are that object, so it is easier to push a key when the fingertip is closer to the fulcrum (the joint). THUS it's easier to push a key with a curved finger rather than an extended finger. And I personally don't see any benefits with playing with additional discomfort other than perhaps a different color achieved with flat fingers.

The physics is actually rather complex here- it's not a simple lever issue and the mechanics of a standard fulcrum does not strictly apply in a traditional or straightforward way. If the above held up, curling the finger so far as to start with the finger tip just a centimetre away from the knuckle would produce more sound still.  

Also, the problem with a curved finger is collapse and associated loss of energy transmission. A flat finger cannot collapse back. If a curved finger gives way even a fraction, that can totally compromise energy transfer. Many people resort to severe stiffness for this reason- although it's far simpler to prevent collapse by simply extending the finger out through the action, rather than attempt to immobilise it through fixation. If it's extending out even slightly, the joints cannot be collapsing back in a way that compromises energy transmission. In fact, the extension doesn't just prevent energy loss but actively adds more energy.

I think a decent pianist ought to experiment plenty with both starting positions and both styles of movement. I don't see any reason to omit either. They are just very different.

[werq34ac]

The physics is actually rather complex here- it's not a simple lever issue and the mechanics of a standard fulcrum does not strictly apply in a traditional or straightforward way. If the above held up, curling the finger so far as to start with the finger tip just a centimetre away from the knuckle would produce more sound still. 

Also, the problem with a curved finger is collapse and associated loss of energy transmission. A flat finger cannot collapse back. If a curved finger gives way even a fraction, that can totally compromise energy transfer. Many people resort to severe stiffness for this reason- although it's far simpler to prevent collapse by simply extending the finger out through the action, rather than attempt to immobilise it through fixation.

I think a decent pianist ought to experiment plenty with both starting positions and both styles of movement. I don't see any reason to omit either.

Simplifying the physics however, it feels like it takes more force to push a key with a flat finger than it does with a curved finger. Plus curving the hand allows for one of the most fundamental techniques of piano playing: the thumb under technique.

[nyiregyhazi]

Simplifying the physics however, it feels like it takes more force to push a key with a flat finger than it does with a curved finger. Plus curving the hand allows for one of the most fundamental techniques of piano playing: the thumb under technique.

I think the difference is that when a finger extends during the movement of the key (which obviously cannot happen if it already starts extended rather than curved), it actively adds a touch of extra energy in doing so. However, I don't personally feel it takes more force with a flat finger, and if anything I feel it's easier to be confident about extreme actions without the thud of a heavy landing. I'm not sure about the literal mechanical forces involved, but I don't experience any subjective sense of having to "force" anything. There are many pianists who favour the flatter finger for big sonorous sounds.

[werq34ac]

I think the difference is that when a finger extends during the movement of the key (which obviously cannot happen if it already starts extended rather than curved), it actively adds a touch of extra energy in doing so. However, I don't personally feel it takes more force with a flat finger, and if anything I feel it's easier to be confident about extreme actions without the thud of a heavy landing. I'm not sure about the literal mechanical forces involved, but I don't experience any subjective sense of having to "force" anything. There are many pianists who favour the flatter finger for big sonorous sounds.

Hmm.. that's interesting, I suppose it really depends on the pianist. Personally, when I want a big, but sonorous sound (as opposed to harsh) I would start curved, but immediately absorb the impact upon playing, which I find impossible with straight fingers. I feel like more energy goes directly into the key when my fingers are curved. Again, that's just person experience.

[nyiregyhazi]

Hmm.. that's interesting, I suppose it really depends on the pianist. Personally, when I want a big, but sonorous sound (as opposed to harsh) I would start curved, but immediately absorb the impact upon playing, which I find impossible with straight fingers. I feel like more energy goes directly into the key when my fingers are curved. Again, that's just person experience.

I think there are very different characteristics about the movement that is required to make each work. I think either can be effective, but they require an extremely different approach to the movement itself. I think one thing about pulling from a flat finger is that the arm needs to hang back much more and perhaps even pull back slightly to stabilise. Without that, the finger can seem to be a lot weaker.

[countrymath]

I think you should play with extended fingers. You can't play the black keys with flexed fingers. Its too awkward. And if you play the withe keys with flexed fingers and the black with extended, you will be making an unnecessary movement. Another thing: With flexed fingers, when you use your body's weight, the weight will be thrown on the joint of your fingers. This can cause injury and tension. If you play with extended fingers, the weight will be spared between all your hand.

[drazh]

Dear countrymath
Very useful response .thank you . I have long and thin fingers are they good for extended position or not?
I was selftaught before and at that time I was playing with extended fingers to me it was very comfortable .but my teacher insisted to play with flexed fingers.are long and thin fingers good for extended position ?eg.when I should increase speed.
Thanks

[werq34ac]

I think you should play with extended fingers. You can't play the black keys with flexed fingers. Its too awkward. And if you play the withe keys with flexed fingers and the black with extended, you will be making an unnecessary movement. Another thing: With flexed fingers, when you use your body's weight, the weight will be thrown on the joint of your fingers. This can cause injury and tension. If you play with extended fingers, the weight will be spared between all your hand.

I can reach black keys with flexed fingers. And I have very short fingers (although a decently sized palm to make up for it). I don't think the OP should completely rule out the possibility of flexed fingers, since as Nyiregyhazi pointed out, there's benefits to both.
Playing black keys however, my fingers are a bit more extended, but the movement can be minimized by playing the white keys closer to the black keys.

Dear countrymath
Very useful response .thank you . I have long and thin fingers are they good for extended position or not?
I was selftaught before and at that time I was playing with extended fingers to me it was very comfortable .but my teacher insisted to play with flexed fingers.are long and thin fingers good for extended position ?eg.when I should increase speed.
Thanks

If you have long fingers, I actually recommend curved fingers since the extension since the "wall" of the piano might actually get in the way.

[jesc]

I don't think the OP should completely rule out the possibility of flexed fingers, since as Nyiregyhazi pointed out, there's benefits to both.

Exactly, it just annoys me a bit that it is being put forward again and again to stick to only ONE posture and completely disregard the other.

To the OP:
I'm guessing that you're being taught such because he/she is preparing you for something, probably your next piece. Teachers follow a certain guideline or a map, you study such then you'll be prepared for the next piece they'll introduce to you.

Unless you're under some scholarship I'm assuming you're paying your teacher. You begin taking advice here telling you to disobey your teacher, you're just destroying whatever path was laid out for you. This defeats the purpose of paying for the lesson.

If you don't agree with your teacher, argue with him/her and resolve it face to face. If both of you can't agree, get someone else.

[pianoplayjl]

Fingers should be flexed whenever possible and extended whenever possible. some sections of pieces may require you to extend your fingers to play it comfortably, and vice versa.

[werq34ac]

Fingers should be flexed whenever possible and extended whenever possible. some sections of pieces may require you to extend your fingers to play it comfortably, and vice versa.

lol thats not exactly possible to do.. You can't flex and extend at the same time. Stick to one and go to other only if absolutely necessary.

[pianoplayjl]

That's what I meant except that you explained it better than me.

[countrymath]

Well, you should always play the way that is mroe confortable to you. If you say that flexed fingers are better, then go on. But you said that extended fingers are better for you, then play with extended fingers. My old teacher also said me to play with flexed fingers. I didn't, because I knew that it causes tension.