Modes and Equal Temperament?

[m1469]

Does anybody happen to have any good book and/or article recommendations on modes in general?  Also, I'm very curious about how equal temperament affected "church" modes ... did it change them?

Thoughts are very much appreciated and I thank you!

[keypeg]

Does anybody happen to have any good book and/or article recommendations on modes in general?  Also, I'm very curious about how equal temperament affected "church" modes ... did it change them?

Thoughts are very much appreciated and I thank you!

One of my history books suggests that musical instruments affected church modes even before equal temperament came along.  And the church modes went off in two directions from what it was before.  I understand that the Orthodox churches still have the microtones etc. and they also don't have instruments in their services afaik.

[dcstudio]

Does anybody happen to have any good book and/or article recommendations on modes in general?  Also, I'm very curious about how equal temperament affected "church" modes ... did it change them?

Thoughts are very much appreciated and I thank you!

what is it you want to learn about the modes? is this for you or your students?  Dr. Cho has a book called "Modal Harmony"  (I think)  that goes into advanced "deeply modal"  concepts      I learned the modes in jazz theory class before tonal harmony class in college---they explained it a little more concisely in jazz.  For this route I suggest Dan Haerle's book--the Jazz Language. 

so many students get confused when you say "modes" 

[m1469]

Thank you both for your replies.  

Yes, I believe I am wanting "deeply modal" concepts   - and keypeg, this is interesting regarding instruments changing modes.  Right now, it is for me (I've never had a student hardly even want to learn a scale, let alone learn about the modes, let alone learn about those in a deeper way) but may perhaps be useful in my teaching, eventually.

Perhaps I am just being silly, but it seems there's this whole other(s) dimension to it ... there's some kind of matrix that I want to better understand.  For example, I was looking at Bach's invention number 1 again, and I thought "What if, instead of just thinking about these motifs being transposed to represent different chords within one Major scale, he were thinking in terms of modes?" ... and then my head and my guts went crazy  .  Today I have a rest from my head and guts, and I'm just kind of existing  .

[keypeg]

m1469, I started studying this book.  https://www.wwnorton.com/college/music/grout8/ch/01/studyplan.aspx  It gave me a lot of insights.  (I'm almost up to Renaissance).  I found it useful to also listen to music of the periods, read up more on history, period, and get immersed, period.  You'll find that the history of modes and how these things were perceived also changes in different periods of time.  There is something that precedes what we think of as modes and if you go back to the Greeks, you might find yourself wanting to look at Indian Ragas.  In the old system there were also microtones, and this is what I understand left the churches once instruments came in.

Oh, a thought from what else you wrote.  As far as Bach is concerned, for the chorales he had to harmonize existing chants.  Those chants were created at an earlier time so some of them are quite modal.  We started looking at some of them where you have to ask "Why did he end so strangely?"  You'll also see the same chant treated two or three different ways, always under the same title.

[m1469]

Thank you very much, keypeg!

[Bob]

Grout!

[keypeg]

Grout!

lololol 

[dcstudio]

oh Grout and his wonderful textbook.    spent 2 yrs with it. oh so many exams. 

[keypeg]

I first heard of Grout on a forum where someone asked about music history (maybe it was me?  )  A lot of old timers were groaning about the exams and such as soon as it was mentioned.  I'm studying it on my own.  Purchase of the book automatically gives access to the site with supplemental material to hear, etc.  There are also questions like mini-exams.  You have to name this, and identify that.    I'm thinking that if I were to study it for exams, it would be a different experience.  I'm not good at remembering names of things.  I also remember in my university days (not music) that we went through so much material so fast that I didn't think I had really absorbed or appreciated the material.

I can study this at my own pace the way I want.  In the very first chapter going back to Mesopotamia, I had to confront the ignorance our "education" system left us with.  Mesopotamia?  Some place in the world that wasn't part of Columbus Discovered America, and Henry Had Lots of Wives?  I spent days just immersing myself in geography, history, watching historical documentaries.  I still have trouble remembering the name "Mesopotamia" but that stuck with me.

Ok, this is off topic (I think?) but it is Sunday after all.

[m1469]

I spent days just immersing myself in geography, history, watching historical documentaries.  I still have trouble remembering the name "Mesopotamia" but that stuck with me.

This is very similar to how my mind works, which is sometimes extremely annoying, actually!  Always looking for context. 

Now I'm obsessed with tetra chords. 

[haydnseeker]

Dr. Cho has a book called "Modal Harmony"  (I think)  that goes into advanced "deeply modal"  concepts. 

Does anyone have more information about Cho's book?  I couldn't find it listed on Amazon or AbeBooks, and a Google search didn't give me anything either.

[Bob]

Gene J. Cho?

[m1469]

I'll investigate the book as soon as I can see straight  !

Right now, I am just immersed in tetrachords ...

[Bob]

What's the fascination with tetrachords?  Just 1234 or 5671?

[m1469]

Bob, you have *so* asked the wrong question!  You should be wondering what is your UNfascination with them!    If, in fact, you are not very fascinated 

[keypeg]

m1469, see if you can find this book: "Materials of Western Music", G. Andrews, M. Sclater, 1988 Gordon V. Thompson Music - Part 1.  Look at chapter 1.  They fixate on tetrachords, and go back to the idea through the entire book.  It's basic first level harmony theory but they have added this to the mix.

[m1469]

Keypeg, thank you!  I looked it up and was able to view inside.  What I saw there seems like a tiny morsel beyond a mere mention and is on the track of what I've been studying, but not nearly as all-inclusive as it can be!  Maybe I didn't see all of it though.  Let me look at your message .

[dcstudio]

Keypeg, thank you!  I looked it up and was able to view inside.  What I saw there seems like a tiny morsel beyond a mere mention and is on the track of what I've been studying, but not nearly as all-inclusive as it can be!  Maybe I didn't see all of it though.  Let me look at your message .

Keypeg is great, isn't she?    I get lots of great tips from her, too.

[Bob]

Bob, you have *so* asked the wrong question!  You should be wondering what is your UNfascination with them!    If, in fact, you are not very fascinated 

Nope.  I still don't get it.  I remember that from beginning lessons and a mention in a theory class.  It's just a few common notes between scales.  And near related scales too.

[m1469]

I remember that from beginning lessons

What did you do with it in beginning lessons - do you remember?

[Bob]

Intro to scales.  "Look!  These four notes are the same as these four note, but in a different scale!  Oh my!  You've already learned half of the other scale already!"  One extra accidental.  And don't let that mess you up, having two scales that are the same except for one note.

[m1469]

Intro to scales.  "Look!  These four notes are the same as these four note, but in a different scale!  Oh my!  You've already learned half of the other scale already!"  One extra accidental.  And don't let that mess you up, having two scales that are the same except for one note.

Oh, ok .