yet another fingering inquiry

[nowpiano]

Hi, I'm doubtful any information may help me (although I hope otherwise), but I'm more looking for some confirmation on how annoying some notes can be to push; more specifically, the extra notes you don't want to push.

As most of you know, there is a white note and a black note hand position.  Sometimes your hand has to be in the black note position while pushing white notes.  In a lot of cases this seems fine, but every now and then I come across a measure where one or two of the notes takes extreme accuracy to give them proper volume or to keep from mashing additional notes along with.  My fingers are quite thin, I can only imagine the frustration people with thicker fingers have.

Two case in points.  First snippet is Chopin op 25 no 1, second, Czerny op 740 no 19

Try playing right hand snippet with some speed a few times =/

edit:  The time/beat on the first one is 4/4, the screenshot has 3 measures, one of which is circled in red.  The second one is 3/4, the screenshot includes only one measure.

[lelle]

I did not know there is a white note and a black note hand position. I've been taught that most technique is about using your (upper) arm to move your hand to the most convenient position while playing. Try examining what movement you need to use for the easiest execution of the passage, since your complaint seems to be that this "black note position" doesn't work for the passage you try to play.

(I might have misunderstood you though since I've never heard anybody mention these two positions)

[quantum]

Perhaps you should move away from the thinking there are only two positions.  This may be what is holding you back.  One needs to find the optimal position for playing any given passage. 

Both excerpts you give seem to focus on the issue of playing mostly black keys, yet having to play the odd white key.  Lay your hand above the notes as if they formed a solid chord.  Find the most natural least contorted form - it takes some observation and experimentation to do this.  Notice that fingers on white keys don't need to always play on the edge of the key.  You can play in between the black keys and in the two examples you have given that is exactly what i would do.  When you play the passage as written, employ a flexible and supple wrist to further enable your fingers into their position. 

As for the finger action, you talk about "pushing."  Try to think about dropping weight onto the keys as opposed to pushing them down. 

[nowpiano]

My piano jargon isn't very good, most of my information I get online, as piano is a hobby for me.

Yes, the upper arm moves, which moves the hand.  I wasn't intending to seem as if one would play only in a black or white note position, obviously to play you move often depending on the notes.

--"Notice that fingers on white keys don't need to always play on the edge of the key."

Yes, agreed.  In both these snips of music, the notes with a red arrow pointing to them are white keys which seem to need to be played in between the black keys, rather than near the edge.  By itself no issue, but with other notes at high speed, it can be very difficult to execute, even after much practice as well as noticing the path of least resistance etc.

--"As for the finger action, you talk about "pushing."  Try to think about dropping weight onto the keys as opposed to pushing them down."

I should have said "playing" instead of "pushing", although even with using gravity and momentum when possible, many passages one must use finger strength as well.  It would sound silly trying to play with a limp hand using only gravity.  A good use of gravity/momentum/finger strength/body movement seems to be the necessities of good technique.

I'm sure both of you already know these things.  Going back to my original post, my issue is with only one or two of the notes in measures such as the examples above.  Hitting a white key between two black keys without losing speed while playing.

Most white keys between black keys aren't difficult for me.  Its only a very few instances like the two above which give me trouble.

[brogers70]

I'm just an amateur, but.... For broken chord passages like the two you show, I suggest practicing them as block chords first. Practice the motions between the successive chords as block chords also. Once you get to the point that you are confident in plonking your hand on top of the whole chords all at once, then you can work on the figuration and it will, I think, be much easier. If you cannot reach the whole chord in one handful, then try treating the lowest note as a bass and breaking the chord into the lowest note first and then the rest of the chord in a slow tempo (oom-pa, oom-pa, oom-pa)

[quantum]

In the Chopin the note you circled is not one that receives the most importance.  The melody, or top note in this case is far more important.  Try not to dwell too much on passing notes.  If you focus on the melody, maintain the hand position of the chord, and use good wrist movement, the note should fall in place. 

How long have you been playing this piece?  It is more difficult than it seems.  Give it time. 

In the Czerny, the white note plays a more important role in the melodic contour.  Try practicing the arpeggio without the top repeated note.  Following that practice the arpeggio while moving to the top note without making the key sound. 

Do you have a teacher?  It seems if you are running into some technical difficulties that can be better solved with a teacher in person.  The teacher will also be able to correct any elements of your technique that you are currently unaware which need improvement.

[nowpiano]

--"If you cannot reach the whole chord in one handful, then try treating the lowest note as a bass and breaking the chord into the lowest note first and then the rest of the chord in a slow tempo (oom-pa, oom-pa, oom-pa)"

Interesting, this I haven't thought of, although I think I used a similar approach on another piece.  Just from poking at the piano with this it does seem effective for finding the most convenient movement in these cases.  Still the notes are frustrating, but this and lots of practice is the best it gets I suppose.

--"In the Chopin the note you circled is not one that receives the most importance.  The melody, or top note in this case is far more important.  Try not to dwell too much on passing notes.  If you focus on the melody, maintain the hand position of the chord, and use good wrist movement, the note should fall in place.  "

Yes, the note I pointed out in Chopin is the note giving me the most trouble.  When hitting that G, my finger would sometimes mash one or both of the black notes next to it.  I'm not sure if I'll be able to completely avoid that, but I think the advice on here is helping.

--"How long have you been playing this piece?  It is more difficult than it seems.  Give it time. "

Not long, a month maybe?  And in that month maybe an hour a day.  I practice different pieces to make practice more enjoyable.

--"Do you have a teacher?  It seems if you are running into some technical difficulties that can be better solved with a teacher in person.  The teacher will also be able to correct any elements of your technique that you are currently unaware which need improvement."

I live in the middle of nowhere, I have to drive 30 minutes just to get to a cheap music shop.  You all are my teachers =]  Thanks!

[quantum]

Yes, the note I pointed out in Chopin is the note giving me the most trouble.  When hitting that G, my finger would sometimes mash one or both of the black notes next to it.  I'm not sure if I'll be able to completely avoid that, but I think the advice on here is helping.

It is ok to brush up against adjacent notes without playing them.  In some cases it is unavoidable.  Feel the keys and caress the keyboard. You need to develop a tactile sensitivity to selecting the keys you wish to play while allowing physical contact with adjacent keys.

Not long, a month maybe?  And in that month maybe an hour a day.  I practice different pieces to make practice more enjoyable.

That is not long at all.  It needs more time to get into your fingers as well as mature in your mind.  Many of our difficulties in playing a piece can be resolved by thinking them through thoroughly.  Much to often we attribute a difficulty to a lack of practice and start hacking away at the keyboard without fully knowing what it is we want to solve. 


It used to take me 1 hour to get to my teacher's studio.  The effort was well worth it.  Don't rule out studying with one.  

[nowpiano]

It is ok to brush up against adjacent notes without playing them.  In some cases it is unavoidable.  Feel the keys and caress the keyboard. You need to develop a tactile sensitivity to selecting the keys you wish to play while allowing physical contact with adjacent keys.

I agree, I often brush and slide a little while playing.  I've noticed at slow speeds this rarely creates a problem, while at high speeds, jumping more than an octave to, say, a G natural in between two black keys takes very precise motion.

That is not long at all.  It needs more time to get into your fingers as well as mature in your mind.  Many of our difficulties in playing a piece can be resolved by thinking them through thoroughly."

Yes, agreed.  I just recently began memorizing the top hand of this section, and want to begin practicing it with extra consideration.

It used to take me 1 hour to get to my teacher's studio.  The effort was well worth it.  Don't rule out studying with one.

I'm an amateur and play for fun.  I am certain a good teacher would help tremendously.  If I get to a point where this becomes feasible I most likely will.

[nyiregyhazi]

"It is ok to brush up against adjacent notes without playing them.  In some cases it is unavoidable."

I think such cases are extremely rare- except for those with extremely thick fingers. I wouldn't say that brushing the adjacent keys would exactly be a disaster, but I wouldn't say it's "ok" to do it either. It is a sign of imperfect movement. In both cases, it should be possible to get between the black keys 100% cleanly without too much bother. Contacting adjacent black keys (except with the absolute faintest of touches against the sides, perhaps) leaves too much risk and uncertainty. The finger ought to be cleanly between them at once, if consistent accuracy is the goal.

The trick is to start by sliding in with the finger 100% parallel to line of the keys and feeling entirely prepared before sounding the key from contact. From there, it's possible to go on to take slightly more direct routes, but it's generally easier if you feel the finger has arrived there by going forwards- rather than by slipping sideways. Once you're used to fitting between the keys and feeling the key before playing, you can go on to approach it with more sideways movements, if necessary. But it's important to feel comfortable between the black keys, before attempting such paths. If other keys are being struck, it reveals for certain that the finger is not preparing properly before moving the keys. It needs to be in position before you even think of going on to sound the key. One movement gets you there, the next plays the note. The classic mistake is to try to combine these into a single movement too soon. Unless you get the first movement exactly right, don't be sounding any keys at all.

[nowpiano]

^ I agree.  And this is my dilemma.  Trying to give correct volume/tempo without brushing another key with any real force.  At intended tempo in these cases, the difficulty of good execution seems to require far more ability than almost any other part of the piece, the piece being quite a feat to begin with.

There may be a better way than what I'm currently doing, but like other(s) have said I will probably need a good teacher, as it can be difficult to write and understand with words.

[nyiregyhazi]

^ I agree.  And this is my dilemma.  Trying to give correct volume/tempo without brushing another key with any real force.  At intended tempo in these cases, the difficulty of good execution seems to require far more ability than almost any other part of the piece, the piece being quite a feat to begin with.

If you're unable to feel the preparation before playing these keys, you're going too fast- beyond any doubt. Even at full speed, I believe there should be ample time to perceive the preparation between the black keys and the act of sounding the note as two separate activites. I have to be honest, I can't see any obvious reason why the Czerny would cause any problem. Simply by bringing my hand up to play the B flat with 5, there's no more natural thing for my fourth finger to do than to slide between the two black keys. I'd actually feel very strange if my fourth finger were anywhere else other than resting 100% prepared on the G, while playing the 5th finger. The trick is to think that if you're not already prepared to play the G, you have absolutely no business playing the B flat that precedes it either. There's no time to add a second movement. The Chopin is a little different, but that doesn't feel "fast" either. You're perhaps trying to get there too quick and stabbing too much at the note in panic. Again, you have to feel prepared on the key before you sound it, or it's pointless to just jab the finger and hope it gets to be the right place.

The simplest way to summarise this kind of thing is that you need to get prepared over the key with a sense of urgency, but then feel as if you have all the time in the world when it comes to actually playing it. The typical mistake is to reverse that- and prepare too leisurely before employing an explosive stab at the key,

[quantum]

I think such cases are extremely rare- except for those with extremely thick fingers. I wouldn't say that brushing the adjacent keys would exactly be a disaster, but I wouldn't say it's "ok" to do it either. It is a sign of imperfect movement. In both cases, it should be possible to get between the black keys 100% cleanly without too much bother. Contacting adjacent black keys (except with the absolute faintest of touches against the sides, perhaps) leaves too much risk and uncertainty. The finger ought to be cleanly between them at once, if consistent accuracy is the goal.

I would have to disagree here.  Harnessing the ability to brush against adjacent keys while playing others will increase one's accuracy by manyfold.  Developing ability of tactile sensitivity to the surrounding elements of the keys one is playing creates an additional mechanism for security in accurate playing.  

[nyiregyhazi]

I would have to disagree here.  Harnessing the ability to brush against adjacent keys while playing others will increase one's accuracy by manyfold.  Developing ability of tactile sensitivity to the surrounding elements of the keys one is playing creates an additional mechanism for security in accurate playing.  

It's important to distinguish between feeling a finger that is touching the surface of a key as part of a larger hand position, and a finger that is needlessly colliding with a black key as part of an indirect (and inaccurately aimed) path that could easily be a direct route. There's no time to be stumbling around on the surface of adjacent black keys, in the examples given. There's a big difference between using the black keys for tactile peception (where time permits) and clumsily knocking against them where you need to be get straight between them. Especially if accuracy is proving to be a problem, as the poster has described. Touching the sides of keys very faintly is not necessarily disatrous, but it's certainly not a positive either. In these situations you have to learn the most direct path possible. There's no time to stop and use the feel of the black keys to realise you aimed too far to one side and then make an adjustment, when taking it up to performance speed. You have to know how to get there directly and with complete consistency.