Know it all students.

[kellyc]

Hello to all you find wonderful teachers.  Im looking for a little bit of advice.  I myself am not a teacher, or at least not yet. What I am is a Conservatory graduate level student.  Part of my responsibilities this year is to work with incoming Freshman under grads who are not Piano Majors. They are all pretty good musicians, and even though not Piano Majors non the less have some skills at the instrument.  There are some of them though, not all, but some , who think they are Gods gift to music and trying to work with them is like trying to pound thru a brick wall. They just think they know everything and nothing you say is worth listening to.  My question is what methods have you used to get thru to people like this. I could of course take this to the faculty , but that seems lame and once I graduate these kinds of problems are going to be ones I will need to deal with myself. OF course the one course of action I don't have available to me is deciding not to teach them. Thanks so much for reading this and I look forward to any ideas or experiences any of you might have had with students like this. 

Kelly

[m1469]

I have been in a similar situation when I taught Music Fundamentals at the University.  This class had a very healthy dose of people who believed they knew everything there is to know about music because they play something, or sing a little bit (though don't read music, really).  I didn't work with them one-to-one so it's a little different.

I think it's important to try to understand yourself, what, exactly, they believe they are confident about so that if you do any ego-crushing, you're sure to be crushing out the right things while leaving in place what needs to be there.  I think that's tricky.  But, if it's a matter of them actually not knowing what a virtuoso sounds like, for example, or basic exposure to truly upper level playing, then that is something quite "solvable", especially if you can really point out defined characteristics that make somebody's playing superb, and give them a lesson on that particular technique so they might know how difficult it is to do.  Rip something out right in front of them - in this case, it's actually still for the student's sake.  

As a teacher, one thing that I find myself needing to be honest about with myself is whether or not the problem is truly that person's ego or my own - or some combination of both!  And, work on it from there.

Some people aren't actually thinking the way it may seem/what we think they might be.  Culture can play a role, too, or upbringing in general, as well as social factors, etc.. Some people are WAY more sensitive than it seems, as well.

It's tricky.  Some people might decide that just the fact that we post about this means that we ourselves think we know everything there is to know.  For me, that's not true, but at the same time this is something I'm interested in, I'm making my living at dealing with these sorts of situations and so I feel I need the practice at thinking it through, and it's also important to stand on *something* as a musician, etc..  So, we must be willing to do that, too!

[mosis]

why not just let the know-it-alls do what they want? if they're as good as they think they are, they won't have a problem completing their course requirements. if not, maybe when they start failing they'll reconsider their position and adopt some modesty.

no need to struggle with the students! 

[m1469]

why not just let the know-it-alls do what they want? if they're as good as they think they are, they won't have a problem completing their course requirements. if not, maybe when they start failing they'll reconsider their position and adopt some modesty.

no need to struggle with the students! 

Not a problem if your job doesn't depend upon their success.

[zolaxi]

Why don't you politely suggest that they leave and get a job while they still know everything?

[m1469]

Why don't you politely suggest that they leave and get a job while they still know everything?

This is good (for those who are not already in a music job themselves)!

I find myself getting all annoyed at (a few of) my students  .  Do you know what I'm actually, truly annoyed with, though?  Something that, from my perspective right now, has got *nothing* to do with them or the way they act (or don't act).  Not truly, not directly.  How they act and the values they have in life are not truly what "my business" is about.  What happens for me is that I start to clearly recognize my own dissatisfaction with certain things about my own life -some of which I feel I haven't got any idea on how to do anything about- which create a problem for me personally as a teacher, where there doesn't actually need to be one otherwise (even with a rude/ignorant student).  

[starstruck5]

Hey Kelly, that is an interesting dilemma for sure!  I am not a teacher myself, but I do like to write, and over the years I have realised that to write well, I need to have insight into why anyone acts or speaks the way they do. 

I guess the newbie students are used to being praised in their own speciality, and it is difficult for some of them to accept a situation where they clearly don't know it all.  In order to learn we need a certain humility I guess, and for some people, that is beneath them.

Anyhow, perhaps you could gain more insight into talking to someone who knows a lot about psychology.  It is never going to be easy, trying to work out how someone thinks and why, and even if you do people can surprise you!  I wish you luck.

The fact you care though, means I would love to be taught piano by you! 

[lostinidlewonder]

kellyc's problem is not surprising. Why are these students taking lessons from you in the first place? Are they actually paying to have lessons or are they just asked to donate their time and be a test subject for you? If they are actually paying to have lessons I would simply ask them why are they paying for lessons if they don't want to listen to advice? As plain and simple that. It shows that you are a good teacher if you immediately identify that the student does not respect what the teacher is trying to teach. If the student does not want to submit and listen to the teachers advice then there is simply no reason to continue the lesson.

However.... "Honey catches more flies than vinegar". You should try to listen to these students and talk about their own musical ideas. Ask them to demonstrate to you how they learn a piece of music and scrutinize their approach by making suggestions to their own method, improvement or building upon their own ideas. That way it is not your ideas but tweaking their own ideas. Just talk on their terms, see things in their way, modify what they have, if they want to make a real change they will finally trust you and make real changes embracing your new ideas even if it is totally alien from their own methods.

[keypeg]

Some thoughts leading to these questions first of all:  I am curious as to what kinds of things they are told, what they are not listening to, and if they are countering it with anything, what they are countering it with.   Also, have you studied any other instrument in addition to piano?

I am thinking of the fact that these are music majors, people who have spent years learning an instrument different than piano.  I think that most non-piano majors have to have something like grade 5 piano before being admitted to the program?  If they came in having to learn piano from scratch that could be quite a blow to the ego.  Especially if piano is a requirement rather than a choice.  I have a fantastic collection of piano music thanks to two relatives who were music majors and dropped piano as soon as they had "done the required time" with piano. What if piano majors were required to take a year of bassoon - specifically?

It also seems that every instrument gives us a different perspective on music.  Part of it is the instrument, and part of it is the kind of music.  So can they relate to what you are saying?  Would some kind of bridge help?  Maybe pulling in things from their world, which also acknowledge what they know?  Is the opposite of know-it-all a feeling of "I don't know anything here"?  Or is it not a know-it-all attitude, but trying to understand from their own background?   (Anyway, that's why I asked if you play other instruments.)

If a music major has to take piano, do they see a point to it?  What might their motivation (goals) be?  Like I'm thinking that piano for a music major is about understanding harmonies, being able to get at orchestral or ensemble scores like the type they are playing in for their instruments.  Piano is also very good for rhythm and timing since it is so important for that instrument - there is a cool kind of cross-training because it filters into your main instrument.

The two music majors I know had to take piano at university: it was not a choice.  I know a third music major who has returned to piano maybe 15 years later, and is now taking it seriously as an instrument in its own right.  This time it is by choice.

[loops]

dear kelly

speaking as someone who was branded (meanly, I thought) as a know-it-all, there could be quite a different psychology at work.

It could be for one of your know-it-alls that they are trying to say to you, "please treat me like I'm in the club and respect my current knowledge, not patronise."  Of course, some of them could well be horrid!!

just a thought, and all best

loops

[kellyc]

Hi all. I would like to thank everyone so far for there fine answers. I did think though I should clarify my original post just a little. I am not in anyway blaming or complaining about these know it all students. Rather I'm referring to my lack of skill. I have always thought it was up to a teacher to motivate, to enlighten, to find ways of conveying information to there students. Im just looking for ideas to improve my skill set in that regard. Also incase it wasn't clear , I am teaching and working with these students as a course requirement for myself and the Freshmen I am working with are taking a mandatory course for all non piano majors.

Thank you all again for all the great comments.


Kelly

[lukebar]

Without observing the exact situations you are describing, it is difficult to comment. But from my own experience, there is a "teachability" factor inherent in students that will determine how far (if it all) they are able to surpass their natural abilities (talent).

In other words, some students have a great deal of natural talent, and because of this have been able to reach a high level of musicianship without relying much on outside influence. But everyone  everyone eventually reaches a ceiling that requires the help of a teacher to break through.

On the other hand, students who have had to struggle to achieve a basic level of competence at the keyboard have already learned through necessity the importance and benefits of quality instruction, and value it as something that will allow them to continue to grow and achieve way above and beyond what their inborn musical talent level might suggest.

[keypeg]

But here we are talking about music majors who are majoring in another instrument.  They are not trying to find out whether they have any potential for music - they're in, after years of study.  But they are also unlikely to want any high level of musicianship on piano: keyboard is mandatory for first year students.  They have invested themselves in their main instrument.

I am curious if anyone on this board got a music degree in another instrument, and what their attitude and experience was in mandatory keyboard/piano.

[Bob]

If you already play piano you could probably proficiency out of any piano requirements.  However, the class piano course is different than what I had for regular lessons.  Class piano included improv and transposition.

[keypeg]

If you already play piano you could probably proficiency out of any piano requirements.  However, the class piano course is different than what I had for regular lessons.  Class piano included improv and transposition.

As a music major, with piano as a required second instrument?

[keyboardclass]

keypeg has the right idea a few posts up.  I'd ask them to play the piano music on their first instrument then teach them how to mimic that.  I don't teach anyone the piano unless they can use another instrument (usually the voice).

[Bob]

As a music major, with piano as a required second instrument?

I'm not quite following.  Where I went you could proficiency out of the class piano requirements.  Music ed majors who played piano didn't have to take class piano.  If you already had enough chops it wasn't required.  Although I did wonder about it since it covered different things than the traditional lessons.

[keypeg]

Bob, I goofed.  Read half of your post and missed the other half.