Scale fingerings made easy

[nyiregyhazi]

Just written a post categorising the two basic unison scale fingerings (which comprehensively covers 22 out of all 24 keys plus the two exceptions required for B flat and E flat). This is a slightly edited version of a document I've prepared for students, that I'd normally illustrate with demonstrations- although I hope it's pretty clear and understandable as presented. I hope it serves to eradicate the seeming mystery of scale fingering and the illusion that certain keys involve more difficult fingerings than others.

https://pianoscience.blogspot.com/2011/10/scale-fingering-made-easy.html

I'd be interested to know how many people have made the same kinds of observations, or whether your scales were just learned by rote.

[_achilles_]

I feel like videos (or maybe pics of keys at least) would make understanding your post a lot easier. I'm just starting on scales (I've known how they work for ever but have never played them much) so that also be why I found your post so confusing (not the wording or that you used too many technical terms, just the point of it all).

I'm going to try reading this again when I'm next to a piano, and will let you know if that helps. 

[nyiregyhazi]

I feel like videos (or maybe pics of keys at least) would make understanding your post a lot easier. I'm just starting on scales (I've known how they work for ever but have never played them much) so that also be why I found your post so confusing (not the wording or that you used too many technical terms, just the point of it all).

I'm going to try reading this again when I'm next to a piano, and will let you know if that helps.  

Yeah, to be honest it's written in a way that would make more sense to somebody with existing familiarity- rather than as a beginning guide. Also, it's specifically about two hands together. For an individual hand, there's really only one fingering. Every scale is just combinations of a 123 and a 1234. The post is all about how the hands relate to each other when using these patterns.

[ajspiano]

Just written a post categorising the two basic unison scale fingerings (which comprehensively covers 22 out of all 24 keys plus the two exceptions required for B flat and E flat). This is a slightly edited version of a document I've prepared for students, that I'd normally illustrate with demonstrations- although I hope it's pretty clear and understandable as presented. I hope it serves to eradicate the seeming mystery of scale fingering and the illusion that certain keys involve more difficult fingerings than others.

https://pianoscience.blogspot.com/2011/10/scale-fingering-made-easy.html

I'd be interested to know how many people have made the same kinds of observations, or whether your scales were just learned by rote.

I'm bumping this, because the info is pretty valid.

Put simply, yes, I certainly agree with the article, but I have not read it in its entirety yet, (or in detail). I get the impression that it is the exact way that I think about scales though..  and when this dawned on me some time ago I was a little be peeved that my teachers hadn't told me, but rather had taught me scales by rote as if they all had unique fingerings I needed to memorise..

I also try to teach this though I suspect you've got it a little more refined than me. Will have to take some notes.

[timothy42b]

That's not really "scale fingerings made easy" though, is it?

It's an ingenious system for optimizing fignerings with the prime criterion being hands together scales.

(HT scales being a technical problem that does not occur in the literature.)

Gieseking would be appalled.  Hee, hee. 

[nyiregyhazi]

That's not really "scale fingerings made easy" though, is it?

It's an ingenious system for optimizing fignerings with the prime criterion being hands together scales.

(HT scales being a technical problem that does not occur in the literature.)

Gieseking would be appalled.  Hee, hee.  

It works equally well hands together or not. Hands separate scales involve the very same system I outline-including variant fingerings. Either you have two thumb reference points and use the distance to derive 3s and 4s. Or you take a single reference thumb to place four beside (and allow turning under 3 to be done on autopilot). This manner of thinking is highly adaptable- because it's based on small numbers of mental reference points that can be applied as over the place. Although it's written with regard to hands together scales, understanding the principles only deepens the awareness of what underpins one handed scales.

Conversely, we could use the dogmatic alternative fingerings system- that insists that within any given key a specific finger must always go on a certain note (no matter how awkward that makes starting the scale) and which provides no logic upon which to base any further variants. And which renders hands together scales ludicrously cumbersome,  due to a complete absence of convenient meeting points.

[nyiregyhazi]

I'm bumping this, because the info is pretty valid.

Put simply, yes, I certainly agree with the article, but I have not read it in its entirety yet, (or in detail). I get the impression that it is the exact way that I think about scales though..  and when this dawned on me some time ago I was a little be peeved that my teachers hadn't told me, but rather had taught me scales by rote as if they all had unique fingerings I needed to memorise..

I also try to teach this though I suspect you've got it a little more refined than me. Will have to take some notes.

Yeah, I've been thinking about this for years. It amazed me when I realised that 21 of the standard fingerings coordination (22 if you use my variant for f sharp minor)  are covered by either of just two simple ways of thinking. It saves a hell of a lot time to realise this.

[ajspiano]

(HT scales being a technical problem that does not occur in the literature.)

Gieseking would be appalled.  Hee, hee. 

It happens several times in the heroic polonaise... 

[enjru]

Wow, thanks for the tips! I never noticed this before!!

[timothy42b]

It happens several times in the heroic polonaise... 

I've not played that, so:
what key are the scales in, and was it important for your thumbs to land together? 

[timothy42b]

I've not played that, so:
what key are the scales in, and was it important for your thumbs to land together? 

Never mind.  I looked at the score on IMSLP, and I have two impressions.

I will not play that piece in my lifetime, and I have nothing but admiration for those of you who can.

Thumb coordination on HT scales has zero application to that piece.  and by extension, most likely to all pieces.   

[ajspiano]

I've not played that, so:
what key are the scales in, and was it important for your thumbs to land together? 

I would have to say that the ascending Bb melodic minor scales that occur in 3(?) bars were certainly not the major difficulty - nor would unifying the thumbs in these bars makes a significant difference to the piece overall. Really I was just being a bit of a douche pointing it out.

However, the idea of focus points in the fingering can certainly be applied to passages that aren't whole scales.

[timothy42b]

Really I was just being a bit of a douche pointing it out.

No, I appreciated it, and I have a tendency to pick a nit myself. 

However, the idea of focus points in the fingering can certainly be applied to passages that aren't whole scales.

Sure, makes sense.  This seems especially so in Bach, at least to me. 

[ajspiano]

No, I appreciated it, and I have a tendency to pick a nit myself. 

If we are being particularly picky there's one at the end of chopin's winterwind etude as well. Again an ascending melodic minor. Thats the only other example I can think of, but my knowledge of the literature is pretty limited.

Sure, makes sense.  This seems especially so in Bach, at least to me. 

seems likely to me too - but I havent studied enough bach to really be an authority on the importance of finer details like this in his compositions vs anyone elses.

[nyiregyhazi]

Never mind.  I looked at the score on IMSLP, and I have two impressions.

I will not play that piece in my lifetime, and I have nothing but admiration for those of you who can.

Thumb coordination on HT scales has zero application to that piece.  and by extension, most likely to all pieces.   

?  You need to explore more repertoire. Look at a wealth of examples in beethoven and Mozart concertos. And that's to say nothing of the fact that you ignored my pointing out that thumb reference points provide every bit as much of a guide to hands separate scales. When you have a seemingly complex fingering that depends merely on one thumb note per octave for safe coordination, you have a very easy task.

Regarding the polonaise, it's not a work I've learned.  However I can sightread the b flat minor melodic scales at the drop of a hat- for the simple reason that I use a finger that coordinates thumbs.