The Good Atonal Compositions?

[octavius_trillson]

Hi

I recently decided to give atonal music another try after discovering a piece by Ronald Stevenson called Passacaglia on DSCH (listen to the first 6 minutes).

I also like Sorabji's Transcendetal Etude No.18

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And Fantasia Contruppuntistica by Busoni but I'm not sure if it's atonal.

Do you know of any atonal (or dissonant? ) works that are similar to these in that they obey some strict form, have recurring themes and aren't too harsh on the ears?

[ahinton]

Hi

I recently decided to give atonal music another try after discovering a piece by Ronald Stevenson called Passacaglia on DSCH (listen to the first 6 minutes).

I also like Sorabji's Transcendetal Etude No.18

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And Fantasia Contruppuntistica by Busoni but I'm not sure if it's atonal.

Do you know of any atonal (or dissonant? ) works that are similar to these in that they obey some strict form, have recurring themes and aren't too harsh on the ears?

Wonderful works, all three - but atonal? You have to be kidding! All are replete with tonal / triadic references! - the Busoni especially so, based as it is upon music by J.S. Bach. The recordings of those works that I recommend are the composer's own of Passacaglia on DSCH and two of Fantasia Contrappuntistica by John Ogdon, all on the Altarus label - and, of course Fredrik Ullén's on the Sorabji (which is the only one commercially available); all splendid performances.

Best,

Alistair

[pianoplayjl]

You can have a look at ornstein's compositions. I like them.
 

Beast,

Alistair

Hahahaha

[octavius_trillson]

Wonderful works, all three - but atonal? You have to be kidding! All are replete with tonal / triadic references! - the Busoni especially so, based as it is upon music by J.S. Bach. The recordings of those works that I recommend are the composer's own of Passacaglia on DSCH and two of Fantasia Contrappuntistica by John Ogdon, all on the Altarus label - and, of course Fredrik Ullén's on the Sorabji (which is the only one commercially available); all splendid performances.

Beast,

Alistair

That's funny to learn, I guess that means I still don't like atonal music or fully atonal music anyway. I'd be interested in hearing a completely atonal work that's not too beastly if you can suggest one?

[octavius_trillson]

You can have a look at ornstein's compositions. I like them.

Thanks, I'll have a listen

[mike_lang]

Wonderful works, all three - but atonal? You have to be kidding! All are replete with tonal / triadic references!

Alistair, how would you define atonal, as opposed to post-tonal?  Are they qualitatively different things?  It is clear that there is such a difference between serial, 12-tone, contemporary, modern, postmodern, and avant-garde, but I have never really been able to articulate it between these two.

I've had a hunch that while Webern would fall into the former category, Schnittke would fall into the latter.

Curiously,
Mike

[49410enrique]

not sure if these are up your alley but they're freakin rad:

[ahinton]

Alistair, how would you define atonal, as opposed to post-tonal?  Are they qualitatively different things?  It is clear that there is such a difference between serial, 12-tone, contemporary, modern, postmodern, and avant-garde, but I have never really been able to articulate it between these two.

I've had a hunch that while Webern would fall into the former category, Schnittke would fall into the latter.

Curiously,
Mike

Whilst to some extent it might be argued that tonality is in the ear of the beholder, what to me constitutes tonality is references to triadic material and melodic writing within the music that have indelible connections with aspects of diatonicism. I simply cannot accept the defintion "post-tonal" - just as I am uncomfortable with those such as "post-modern" - since what really matters is how the material concerned may or may not give rise to the definition at hand rather than whether what's being defined comes before or after anything else; in other words (in the present context), there is - to me, at least - no such thing as "post-tonal", especially as music that most people would likely define as broadly tonal was written by numerous composers all over the world throughout the period in which music that could reasonably be described as "atonal" was also being written - so there is a concurrency rather than a sense of before and after. There doesn't have to be a "tonal centre" to define music as "tonal" (the kind of "progressive tonality" found in Nielsen and others where the principal tonal centre moves from point to point during a particular work does not, for example, define it as "atonal") - and the instance of 12-note serialism does not of itself necessarily eschew a sense of tonality. I realise that I'm not doing too well here to make out my case(!) but I nevertheless hope that what I've written here at least makes some sense and helps to focus what might be argued to constitute "tonality" and "atonality".

Best,

Alistair

[octavius_trillson]

Over the course of the day I've discovered these gems:

Ornstein Waltz No.4

Ornstein: Morning in the woods

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Ornstein: Solitude

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Ornstein: Intermezzo No. 1

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Ornstein: A Long Remembered Sorrow

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Ornstein is amazing, his music is like a fusion of Rachmaninoff and Debussy.

Hamelin: After Pergolessi

Ronald Stevenson: Le Festin d'Alkan (in my opinion 2nd and 3rd Movements far superior to first)
1st Mov

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2nd Mov

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3rd Mov

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The Scriabin didn't resonate too well with me  

[mike_lang]

Whilst to some extent it might be argued that tonality is in the ear of the beholder, what to me constitutes tonality is references to triadic material and melodic writing within the music that have indelible connections with aspects of diatonicism. I simply cannot accept the defintion "post-tonal" - just as I am uncomfortable with those such as "post-modern" - since what really matters is how the material concerned may or may not give rise to the definition at hand rather than whether what's being defined comes before or after anything else; in other words (in the present context), there is - to me, at least - no such thing as "post-tonal", especially as music that most people would likely define as broadly tonal was written by numerous composers all over the world throughout the period in which music that could reasonably be described as "atonal" was also being written - so there is a concurrency rather than a sense of before and after. There doesn't have to be a "tonal centre" to define music as "tonal" (the kind of "progressive tonality" found in Nielsen and others where the principal tonal centre moves from point to point during a particular work does not, for example, define it as "atonal") - and the instance of 12-note serialism does not of itself necessarily eschew a sense of tonality. I realise that I'm not doing too well here to make out my case(!) but I nevertheless hope that what I've written here at least makes some sense and helps to focus what might be argued to constitute "tonality" and "atonality".

Best,

Alistair

So, in short, you would (and I don't mean to be simplistic, but for the moment) classify music as tonal or not (i.e., atonal), that is, music that is dependent on functional tonality or references it, and music that does not.

If I understand you correctly, this would put (as I mentioned before) Schnittke squarely in the realm of tonal music, and Webern in that of atonal music.

Upon further reflection, it seems to me that there are perhaps four overall periods (time periods): pre-tonality, tonality, atonality, and post-tonality.  The last two may seem somewhat redundant, but let me attempt to further define the terms as I use them.  Pre-tonality involves medieval/renaissance music before functional harmony became the rule; tonality is the bulk of tonal music; atonality is a reactionary movement that is actively anti-tonal (that is, one tone acting as monarch, placing other tones in standard functions such as predominant and dominant); post-tonality is what follows the Schoenbergian emancipation, and is the epoch in which we now live: tonality/tonal references are not verboten (not that it ever totally was), yet composers make use of a wide variety of techniques unimagined until the coming of the Second Viennese School.

Thoughts?

Mike

P.S.
As a side-note, I have to agree with your assessment of the word post-modern as a fairly nebulous term . . . at least in common and non-technical usage.

[pianoplayjl]

Over the course of the day I've discovered these gems:

Ornstein Waltz No.4

Ornstein: Morning in the woods

&feature=related
Ornstein: Solitude

&feature=related
Ornstein: Intermezzo No. 1

&feature=related
Ornstein: A Long Remembered Sorrow

&feature=related

Ornstein is amazing, his music is like a fusion of Rachmaninoff and Debussy.

Hamelin: After Pergolessi

Ronald Stevenson: Le Festin d'Alkan (in my opinion 2nd and 3rd Movements far superior to first)
1st Mov

&feature=related
2nd Mov

&feature=related
3rd Mov

&feature=related

The Scriabin didn't resonate too well with me 

Wow, glad you gave Ornstein a go. I've probably mentioned this a trillion times in the forum, but you have to listen to Suicide in an airplane, like it or not. The alternating chords are reminiscent of the rotor blades it the front of the airplane in those days.

[49410enrique]

Over the course of the day I've discovered these gems:

...

The Scriabin didn't resonate too well with me  

lol nice word choice in describing your connection to 'atonal' music.  sorry the etudes were to your liking,  this piece is incredibly evocative, i can totally see hear and feel the hecticness of rush hour in huge bustling city:

Chasins Rush hour in Hong Kong moiseiwitsch

[ahinton]

So, in short, you would (and I don't mean to be simplistic, but for the moment) classify music as tonal or not (i.e., atonal), that is, music that is dependent on functional tonality or references it, and music that does not.

Up to a point, yes but, in so doing (and in the extent to which I would even consider doing so), I would be at pains to point out that tonality and the lack of it is to some degree in the ears of the beholder and that, accordingly, some listeners will pick up tonal references in places where others might not. There's an instance, for example, of a couple of parallel perfect fourths in contrary motion in Webern's Second Cantata that sounds to me to be very tonally inclined and, when I first enountered it in aural traning classes more years ago than I care to remember, I was highly amused when the person taking the class upbraided me for admitting this fact because that wasn't the way one was supposed to listen to that passage! (I was entirely unaware that Webern had prescribed how his listeners should listen to that or indeed any other passage in his music). Tonality, then, is to some extent a matter of degree and manifests itself far more obviously and for more of the time in Haydn's Piano Trio in E major than in Schönberg's Kammersymphonie in the same key; at the same time, it is to some extent a matter of the listener's previous experience and aural capacity.

Upon further reflection, it seems to me that there are perhaps four overall periods (time periods): pre-tonality, tonality, atonality, and post-tonality.  The last two may seem somewhat redundant, but let me attempt to further define the terms as I use them.  Pre-tonality involves medieval/renaissance music before functional harmony became the rule; tonality is the bulk of tonal music; atonality is a reactionary movement that is actively anti-tonal (that is, one tone acting as monarch, placing other tones in standard functions such as predominant and dominant); post-tonality is what follows the Schoenbergian emancipation, and is the epoch in which we now live: tonality/tonal references are not verboten (not that it ever totally was), yet composers make use of a wide variety of techniques unimagined until the coming of the Second Viennese School.

Thoughts?

That tonality/tonal references are not verboten and never were totally so is almost certainly the most powerful thrust of your argument here; 12-note serial treatment, for example, does not of itself and by definition necessarily imply the eschewing of tonal references or even the recourse to tonal centres.

Best,

Alistair

[rv]

I like this one
Roslavets - Three Etudes (1914) No. 2

and of course Vers La Flamme if it counts

[octavius_trillson]

I like this one
Roslavets - Three Etudes (1914) No. 2

and of course Vers La Flamme if it counts

Vers La Flamme was abit slow to pick up, but a few minutes in it got interesting, then it got very interesting. Even so I can't say I like Scriabin very much, all the atonal music I've heard of his (albeit very little) is too freeform, what I mean is that it sounds like someone pressing random keys and chords at random intervals with the pedal down, there isn't much continuity from one musical idea to the next, it just doesn't strike me as clever  .

The Roslavets piece was mystifying, I think it would make excellent film/theatre music, or as musical aid to a poem.

lol nice word choice in describing your connection to 'atonal' music.  sorry the etudes were to your liking,  this piece is incredibly evocative, i can totally see hear and feel the hecticness of rush hour in huge bustling city:

Chasins Rush hour in Hong Kong moiseiwitsch

No need to apologize I'm glad you made the suggestion. Rush Hour in Hong Kong was brilliant, I love the references to oriental music, it sounds 'tonal' though.

Wow, glad you gave Ornstein a go. I've probably mentioned this a trillion times in the forum, but you have to listen to Suicide in an airplane, like it or not. The alternating chords are reminiscent of the rotor blades it the front of the airplane in those days.

It did sound like the buzz of a propeller plane, it's hard to like and the title isn't doing it any favours but I'm sure likability wasn't the aim he had when he wrote it. It's effective and the middle section captures terror/chaos very well without being too harsh sounding.

[pianoplayjl]

You should watch alot of videos from the Hexameron channel. That channel provides alot of good obscure atonal compositions.

[precipitato]

scriabin's later works