How do you practice Polyrhythms?

[starstruck5]

Does anyone know of a way in which you can effectively practice 2 against 3 and 3 against 4 etc.

I know that in 2 against 3, the second note has to come a breath after the second note in the three - but I find the timing getting a bit ragged, especially when there are repeated chords in the left hand - as in the Schubert C minor Impromptu - op 90. Weirdly I can drum these polyrhythms out, up to 160 bpm, on a tabletop  - yet when it comes to performing them I tense up.

Any help and advice appreciated.

EDIT ---I can't keep 160bpm up for long, without messing up! I can comfortably tap it out at  around 125 BPM - but only when I build up to it.  I could do this better a year or so ago - but not anymore it seems -

[akasimone]

One thing that helps me for 2-against-3 is to count all 6 16ths in my head--then the 2's go on the 1st and 4th counts and the triplets go on the 1st, 3rd, and 5th.  But the math only works this nicely for 2 against three; you'd have to be able to count a lot faster for 3-against-4 since the lowest common denominator is 12 there.

But, I try to only count like that when I'm first learning a piece.  It can sound a little mechanical if you play everything mathematically correctly.

Also, for me, it's often not enough just to know how the two lines should sound against each other; it takes extra practice with each hand separately so that each line can flow independently.  I find with polyrhythms I need even more security than usual in each hand alone so that I don't worry at all about the notes and can focus on the two rhythms.

[mike_lang]

You can begin with certain phrases whose natural rhythm is close to the resultant from 2/3 and 3/4:

2 against 3: "Nice cup of tea"
3 against 4: "Pass the gosh-darn butter"

When you master playing 2 against 3 and 3 against 4, it is a good idea to continue to study these polyrhythms, listening in such a way that you hear the two voices at once (polyphonic hearing).  Once you can hear both simultaneously, and assuming you have a reasonable sense of pulse, it will be possible to do as many as you can imagine (3/5, 5/7, 5/9, etc.)

Hope it helps,
Mike

[49410enrique]

all the above are great advice. also, on a simpler basis i find, plain old, 'over and over', 'again and again', as in be able to repeat until so internalized it just happens  easily as with symetrical subdivisions.

also like they said it will help to play with more complex variants, i am wrapping up a work with 5 vs 8, 5 vs. 7, 2 vs 7, i know that  figuring these out really helped me with the more common mixed meter sections of the work, that is when i came up on sections of good old 2 vs 3, 3 vs 4, 3 vs 2, and 4 vs 3, they were even easier than before (and i thought i had a really good grasp on them but they got even better).

[dave_clifford]

Hey hey, polyrhythms, it boggled my mind before. I first encountered it was when i was learning the second movement of beethoven's piano sonata op 2 no 1. Like you, I tried to tap the rhythm but my teacher said it will not work, instead, she told me to practise hand seperately, following metronome, same tempo for both hand of course. After that, both hand together, slowly at first, tried to ignore the uneveness, when you finally get used to the rhythm, gradually increase the speed, metronome can be a good helper here. After a lot of practice, you will play it with ease. This method works with me. I hope this can help you. 

[starstruck5]

   Thanks for all the great advice - all of the posts have mentioned something really helpful -Thanks!

[1piano4joe]

I found a program called "Bounce Metronome" to be very helpful with polyrhythms. Just google it. It allows you to hear just about any polyrhythm imaginable while being able to adjust the tempo. I just tap my hands along with it and build up speed to get the feel of it. Then apply "this feel" (more of a groove really) to the specific passage with the predetermined fingering and its done. I found this to be very addicting and was considering buying bongos at one point.