Here's Deppe on the Freeing the Hand

[keyboardclass]

Since any evidence of strenuous effort renders it impossible
to convey an impression of ease and lightness, it follows that the
hand must, first of all, be emancipated - that is to say, it must
be quite freed from the hampering weight of the arm. ''The
hand must be light as a feather" repeated Deppe often. But
how shall it be rendered light? The hand will be light only
when it is carried, instead of carrying itself, over the keyboard.
The lightness and freedom thus imparted to the hand is effected
through the agency of the shoulder and arm muscles, which sup-
port and carry the hand...

from Artistic Piano Playing AS TAUGHT BY
LUDWIG DEPPE by Elisabeth Caland

[nyiregyhazi]

Since any evidence of strenuous effort renders it impossible
to convey an impression of ease and lightness, it follows that the
hand must, first of all, be emancipated - that is to say, it must
be quite freed from the hampering weight of the arm. ''The
hand must be light as a feather" repeated Deppe often. But
how shall it be rendered light? The hand will be light only
when it is carried, instead of carrying itself, over the keyboard.
The lightness and freedom thus imparted to the hand is effected
through the agency of the shoulder and arm muscles, which sup-
port and carry the hand...

While there is arguably some wisdom behind that, it suffers from the simplistic polarisation that the weight might merely be "on" or "off" and fails to take into account the far greater complexity of reality. There are a wealth of different ways of distributing balance between hand and shoulder. While many indeed burden their hands (typically with muscular pressures of the arm that are wrongly perceived as being caused by gravitational "weight") there are also many who strive to withhold so dogmatically that their shoulders and elbows become rigid. The hand frequently becomes completely disconnected from the arm due to fixation.

Functional balance is a lot more complex than supporting weight either at the hand alone or at the shoulder alone and we should be thankful that more modern writers have begun to go beyond the simplistic idea that it's a case of choosing between shoulder and hand. Some people are in a position that is better served by seeking release whereas others are better served by looking to withold more. However, when you realise that you don't have to make a choice between two (impossibly exaggerated) dogmatic extremes, it's far easier to find something workable.

Seeing as you advocate the finger that relaxes after sounding the note, I should be especially interested to know what keeps a key depressed- if the arm is 100% supported at the shoulder end and the finger is supposedly going to cease its activity after the notes sounds. So it's neither weight nor ongoing finger activity? What remains to stop the spring lifting the note back up, precisely? There's really very little point in dealing in historical sources, if you do not stop to consider their practical ramifications.

[keyboardclass]

While there is arguably some wisdom behind that, it suffers from the simplistic polarisation

Deppe simplistic??  Somehow I doubt they'll still be reading you 100 years from now - in fact I'm certainly not reading any further!

[nyiregyhazi]

Deppe simplistic??  Somehow I doubt they'll still be reading you 100 years from now - in fact I'm certainly not reading any further!

Read this bit, please:

"Seeing as you advocate the finger that relaxes after sounding the note, I should be especially interested to know what keeps a key depressed- if the arm is 100% supported at the shoulder end and the finger is supposedly going to cease its activity after the notes sounds. So it's neither weight nor ongoing finger activity? What remains to stop the spring lifting the note back up, precisely?"

How do you account for the obvious impossibility of abiding by both ideals? What keeps the keys down? I'm not interested in a slanging match and will be sticking exclusively to the topic. Please do the same and answer my question.

[keyboardclass]

Read this bit, please:

Nope, your made up psuedo physics means nothing to me.  Instead of insulting the man why don't you see if you can find a later respected pedagogue who has something to say on Deppe?

[nyiregyhazi]

Nope, your made up psuedo physics means nothing to me.  Instead of insulting the man why don't you see if you can find a later respected pedagogue who has something to say on Deppe?

I'm not interested in a slanging match. I'm interested in what physical explanation you can provide for a how a key can be kept depressed with neither weight nor ongoing muscular activation to prevent the finger from doubling back in response to the springs that return a key from the keybed. If you're not interested in stopping to contemplate this self-evident impossibility, then feel free to write another content free post containing unsubstantiated accusations against me- if that somehow makes you feel better than furthering discussion.
 
I have no interest in continuing unless you are willing to respond to my question. There's no value in arguing with somebody who refuses to respond to inconvenient issues. If this thread is reserved for hero worship of Deppe, rather than rational discussion, count me out. Respond with whatever evasive reply you wish.

[keyboardclass]

I'm not interested in a slanging match.

...and this thread is about Deppe.  If you want to pit your minor intellect (and that's being overly generous) against him go ahead - it's not something I have the slightest interest in reading.

[nyiregyhazi]

...and this thread is about Deppe.  If you want to pit your minor intellect (and that's being overly generous) against him go ahead - it's not something I have the slightest interest in reading.

I have nothing more to add, except to say what a shame it is that you can only respond to an immediately pertinent topical question by repeatedly attempting to insult me. I'm not getting involved, sorry.

[keyboardclass]

I have nothing more to add, except to say what a shame it is that you can only respond to my topical questions by repeatedly attempting to insult me. I'm not getting involved.

And what a shame you can't respond with anything other than a rude dismissal when an actual reference of repute is what's required! (though I'm well aware it's how the web works - little people sniping at the great)

[nyiregyhazi]

And what a shame you can't respond with anything other than a rude dismissal when an actual reference of repute is what's required! (though I'm well aware it's how the web works - little people sniping at the great)

The way Deppe describes it as simplistic as suggesting that a human being must either support their weight entirely on the left leg or the right leg whenever standing. Deppe is long dead and I am sure he won't be too offended by the "rudeness" of pointing out that reality is a lot more complex than to consist merely of situations where there are two singular possibilities to choose from. No references are required to prove that weight is DISTRIBUTED in some measure, whenever a hand is contacting the keyboard- be it a 50/50 balance or 99/1 balance.

I provide this additional response, solely because it relates specifically to the topic. I described Deppe's explanation as simplistic not out of rudeness but out of objectivity. When you understand how much more sophisticated reality is than this simplified way of putting it, it's far easier to find something effective.

[keyboardclass]

When you actually come up with a credible source I'll be interested.

[nyiregyhazi]

When you actually come up with a credible source I'll be interested.

Newton. Applications of his work do not require sourcing.

Piano technique is not determined by sources. It's determined by possibility. Sources are interesting to consider but they prove nothing and sadly tend to resort to polarisation- which is why so many contradictions exist from source to source. Having a source for something does not make it so. The only difference between those who preach weight and those who preach fingers is where they personally tip the balance to. They do not represent polar opposites but rather a slightly different interaction and balance of factors. Were more people to look at the bigger picture and realise the sliding scale of possibility, there would be a good deal less confusion.

[keyboardclass]

Newton.

Can't wait for his quote on piano playing!  it hadn't even been invented by then! 

[nyiregyhazi]

Can't wait for his quote on piano playing!  it hadn't even been invented by then!  

I'm done. My sole interest is the subject matter, so if you're not interested in serious discussion I'm not wasting any more time on this. You can have your next hilariously witty response for free- so please make it a good one.

[keyboardclass]

I'm done. My sole interest is the subject matter, so if you're not interested in serious discussion I'm not wasting any more time on this.

So, parading 'Newton' as some kind of magic incantation is serious discussion?  And you with only an 'A' level in mechanics?  Get a life, and while you're at it quote a source that is actually about Deppe, the piano and physics!