Physical Fitness

[Swan]

I posted this topic a while back, but now am really interested in hearing from other teachers.

In your lessons, do you emphasise or even address the need to be physically fit? Of course I teach posture and how to use your body well for the piano.  I suppose I'm referring to the late intermediate and advanced levels of piano.  I talk about mental endurance, but have never offered advice about physical fitness.

Have any teachers here addressed this issue?  Is it important?  What do you all think?

[faulty_damper]

How do you define "fitness"?

Lower than average blood pressure
Lower than average heart rate
Lower than average fat percentage
Larger than average lung capacity

All the above can be used to define "fitness" but is it really important that a student can sit at the bench with a BP of 108/70?  Or have a heart rate in the lower 50s?  Or be very thin?  Or can even hold his breath for the duration of the Minute Waltz?

Just as long as the student doesn't suffer a cardiac arrest with a BP of 160/120 and a heart rate of 90 bpm and weigh far too much than the bench can safely sustain and can't breathe effectively enough when he raises his arms to the keyboard, then he should be fine.

[Swan]

Thanks faulty for the reply.  Like I said, I'm not too sure of this thought myself, that's why I wanted other teacher's opinions.  Anyway who is more sure about the importance of fitness?  Maybe it's not important like faulty has said.  

I ask, because lately - due to extended illness - I have become VERY unfit and I've noticed it has effected the length at which I spend at the piano.  It occurred to me that perhaps I should be addressing this issue to my more advanced students.  But then, maybe not...

So far, we have one, 'nope, doesn't matter.'

Anyone agree/disagree/care?

Robert Henry, if you're reading this, as a performer, do you have a fitness regime, or is piano practise the only thing you emphasise in your daily schedule?

[Shagdac]

My teacher also has discussed the importance of the correct posture, technique, etc. But he has also discussed to some length about total physical fitness. I'm sure that everyone would agree that regular exercise is beneficial not only to one's body and endurance, but also alleviates stress and tension. I know when I go to the gym everyday, I feel better physically and also mentally. I can't see how this would NOT help one's playing. I believe this is very important, and can really be helpful to one's playing. At least from my personal experience. When I exercise everyday, my entire day is better, everything I do, physically and mentally. I am equipped to handle whatever comes my way and mentally prepared to handle things better. I sleep better, have more endurance, can stay focused longer, concentrate better, etc, etc...the list could go on and on.  

I don't however believe that say...being able to lift 300lbs or running 10 miles a day is necessarily going to make you a better pianist than someone who works out moderately at the gym 3-4 times a week. But I do feel that a steady, regular program of exercise is benefical...more because of the stress relief it can provide, and the mental aspects more than physical strength adding to your ability to play. Hope this makes sense!  

Have a great day!
S

[Swan]

Ooops!  We must have posted at the same time.

Thanks for the reply!  I can relate to what you're saying.  It's interesting that your piano teacher has mentioned this.  Mine never did (I had four different ones when growing up).

I think if I did take this one as a part of teaching I have to be a good example myself.   :DWell I have three dogs.  A-walking we will go!

[faulty_damper]

As a cyclist who rides a bicycle 15 or more hours a week, with a lower than average resting heart rate, lower than average blood pressure, lower than average body fat percentage, and larger than average lung capacity, I can't say it has improved my ability to play.

It may have had a negative affect as my body weight is less than before cycling in such large doses and I am not able to apply as much body weight downward to strike the keys.

:-/

[bernhard]

Personally I think physical fitness is very important in general, irrespective of piano playing, so its benefits to piano playing are indirect (but nonetheless beneficial).

And yes, I do advise my students on issues of physical fitness and diet. Some of them are also my students of yoga/martial arts. I find it is all related and very appropriate to piano playing. I also have no interest in competitive sports of any kind.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Daevren]

You teach yoga and martial arts too?

[bernhard]

You teach yoga and martial arts too?

Very quietly, very much on the side, and only to a select few.

[pianowelsh]

Hi Guys  Im no expert on this one being a fairly sedentary piano student myself but my teacher advocates 'core' excersizes. These are mainly for abdomen (stomach and lower back). These have obvious benefits when comes down to posture and I suppose could be applied to Alexander technique as its essentially all about keeping a good supported line through the body. He is of the opinion and may well be right that it looks much more professional when a pianist has good body line but from a playing angle your much more able to move about quickly that way. He also recommends coordination excersizes such as 'hugging' the piano and ones which involve mobilising the shoulder joints. As far as 'serious' exersize goes and it sounds like some of you guys are REALLY serious I suppose ones which put a lot of stress on the wrists are probably not 'sustainable' however I find there is no discomfort as long as I warm down all the joints before playing. Its a hard one to balance as I would have thought that strength and agility of the chest back and arm muscles would enable much more atheletic playing and indeed enable a greater range of tone colours but we need to be carefull that we don't damage ourselves in the process. Like the rest of life it's a bit of a calculated risk?!   I would be interested to know if any of you guys have a special routine you do and whether you intensify or ease up in run up to a major performance??

This looks a really cool site! Sorry if I'm asking for stuff youve already posted. I haven't totally got the hang of the search yet!!

[anda]

Just as long as the student doesn't suffer a cardiac arrest with a BP of 160/120 and a heart rate of 90 bpm and weigh far too much than the bench can safely sustain and can't breathe effectively enough when he raises his arms to the keyboard, then he should be fine.

a few years ago, i went to a competition followed by a masterclass held by the jurors. i don't know the weight of the man chief-juror, anyway, all through the competition they had to bring him a second chair (his behind was way too large just for one), and he had to stop to breathe in order to get to the first floor of the building.

and during the masterclass, he played some of the works we were playing. good. much better than any of us.

[tosca1]

I am sure that we have all seen people of extraordinary shapes and sizes play the piano beautifully. Piano playing is primarily an intellectual activity and no amount of physical exercise per se is going to make us play better.
On the other hand,  a person who is fit and healthy will have physical and mental advantages over an unhealthy, unfit person. Although piano playing can cultivate our mind and even enhance our cognitive functions we must not neglect our physical being. It is only common sense that we should all exercise most days and watch our diet.  That way we can improve our mental and bodily well-being and get more out of life.
Cheers,
Robert.

[ted]

At my age, fifty-seven, I view exercise, mental and physical, as essential to my well-being. Most people seem to see the whole process as a painful compromise between the states of unhealthy pleasure and healthy tedium. I have found myself able to embrace a third option of simply transferring my pleasure response onto healthy things. That way I do not experience the mental battle about whether to indulge in chocolate or brandy because I no longer actually enjoy chocolate or brandy. Over a period of months I slowly transferred the “indulgence” or “treat” association onto healthy food and drinks – no contradiction, no struggle.

I was very surprised at the degree of mental control I possess in the manner of being able to actually change my own pleasure responses and associations. Within reason, I seem to be able to “decide” what I like and what I do not. This discovery runs contrary to everything I was taught, and makes me wonder if I could also “decide” what to believe and who to love, which states are usually considered given or imposed by chemicals, background and fate.  Perhaps I could “decide” to like Mozart and Beethoven – now there’s a conjecture for you !

The trouble is that commerce has deeply vested interests in the “battle” approach to behavioural change. We have all come to suppose that external forces are necessary to cause such changes, of which exercise and diet are two obvious examples. It isn’t really true. We do not need to go anywhere or do anything.

[tocca]

As long as you're of normal fitness it's enough to play the piano in my view, exercising does give other benefits though. It will keep you healthier, lessening the risk of injuries that can affect pianoplaying. It will make it easier to sleep, you'll be more alert/ able to concentrate better.

In short, there are NO disadvantages (besides the time it takes, and maybe initial discomfort) with exercising and a lot of advantages. No matter what we do in life we will always benefit from exercising regulary.

[galonia]

In short, there are NO disadvantages (besides the time it takes, and maybe initial discomfort) with exercising and a lot of advantages. No matter what we do in life we will always benefit from exercising regulary.

Oh, well, you have to be careful of injuries - so depends on what exercise you do.  I once tore all these tendons in my right arm playing badminton, and another time I broke my left arm playing cricket.  And it's easy to break fingers when playing basketball or rugby.  These injuries kind of hamper your ability to practise for a while.

But apart from injuries, I'm all for maintaining a healthy body in which to house a healthy mind.

[timothy42b]

Brass players debate this topic too, especially since they need good air flow.

The problem is time.  You can't really achieve a high performance level on more than one thing.  Three hours at the gym is three hours you can't play piano, can't go fishing, can't have fun with the kids, etc. 

It is unlikely a serious piano student can ever achieve a high level of fitness, unless they just don't have any other life but those two pursuits.

On the other hand, some minimum fitness level obviously benefits anyone, and there are more efficient ways to achieve it.  For example, there are people who continue to make progress lifting weights once every two to three weeks, with specialized programs.  It is well worth looking at HIT (high intensity training) and the Cyberpump sites.  Just as piano practice can be done highly efficiently, or the old traditional methods, so can much of fitness. 

[mound]

It is unlikely a serious piano student can ever achieve a high level of fitness, unless they just don't have any other life but those two pursuits.

That's just not true! All it takes is discipline and a schedule.  I don't care how serious a piano student you are (or serious you are in whatever your endeavor), you can find a half hour, 3 or 4 times a week to get some exercise done.  Perhaps your statement is true depending on how you define "a high level of fitness" - you're not going to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger but you can keep yourself in excellent physical shape and still seriously persue other interests and have a life.  In fact the better shape you are in, the more energy you will have to "compensate for the lost time" you spent exercising.

It's all in your attitude!

-Paul

[timothy42b]

That's just not true! All it takes is discipline and a schedule.  I don't care how serious a piano student you are (or serious you are in whatever your endeavor), you can find a half hour, 3 or 4 times a week to get some exercise done. 

 <snip>

That's what I was getting at.  I make time for that 3 to 4 half hours of running per week, plus a periodic and infrequent weight workout.  That is nowhere near sufficient to even perform adequately at a weekend fun run, of 5k or so.  Serious runners put in real time; as do swimmers and piano players.  You have to make choices, and except for those few Mozarts, most of us are lucky to do one thing well. 

[m1469]

I have been thinking about this thread quite a bit.  I will admit that I am not in the same kind of shape as I would have as my ideal, but physical fitness is very important to me none-the-less.

I do feel, as TimR mentioned, that choices need to be made along these lines as I don't see myself being able to spend 3 or 4 hours working out each day (somethng that sounds enjoyable to me) as well as fitting in the kind of quality practicing, teaching and research I want to be doing (not to mention normal life stuff). 

It is mainly a matter of looking hard at one's priorities.  Piano is definitely my main priority.  Because of this, I often aim to have the other things that I do in life serve this priority in some way.  Afterall, I am bringing my entire person to the art, so it can only help to refine as an individual.  Two main examples come first to my mind, although there are many more that I am sure you are already thinking of.

1.  Interaction with others.  Because communication is very important to me, and becuase music is communicative, I am very conscious of how I communicate with people in all venues.  I try to be aware of how I am saying things and how this may make the other person(s) feel.  I of course do not always say the "right" things, but, I also learn from this. 

My point here is that this kind of attention if done with awareness, will indeed greatly serve my main priority; piano.  It is necessary as a matter of fact (for me).   I am writing this very post to help clarify these ideas in my head which will in turn help me as a musician, as well as help me to pass ideas on toward my students.

I feel the same is true with everything we may do, athletics are a fabulous example.  Having been thinking on this thread, I went swimming yesterday to get in a workout.  I needed to clear my head after having spent the whole day with study, I also just needed to experience some good and thorough physical exertion.   

Here is what was most interesting to me about this:

As I began, I thought I would not make it even 20 minutes as I had been exhausted before even entering the pool.  After a few laborious  laps however,  I decided to think on the subject of one of the fugues I had been working on earlier.  This changed everything!  I began to swim within the rhythm of this fugue.  I felt I was moving with the music.  My workout turned into pure joy, and lasted far longer than any workouts had ever lasted previously to it.  I never ran out of energy and stopped only in decision to get back to my study.  The workout had already fulfilled its purpose for the day.

This is what I walked away with:

1.  I had gone through and memorized in my mind the gist of the formal structure of this particular fugue.
2.  I have a very clear subject in my mind now.
3.  My body learned to move with the music in ways that I cannot explain easily in words (and I don't feel like trying)  but of which are entirely practical and applicable to my study at the piano. 
4.  I got one of the best workouts of my life during which I could maintain a more steady tempo, developed better form, and seemed to awaken energy more than expend it.
5.  My mind was more clear and fresh in general, leaving me ready to resume my studies.
6.  etc. etc. etc. 

The bottom line here is (no pun intended), that I think there are vast and direct benefits of physical fitness toward playing the piano, as well as the acts invovled with getting it and maintaining it.

m1469 Fox

[annabell]

Hi,  I've always felt that physical fitness was very important.  If I must practice a lot, I make sure to incorporate some isometric exercises for my legs and stomach while I practice.  I hold my left leg out and point my toe while lifting it up and down.. I stand while I play and slowly do knee bends. I've found it is great for keeping warm in the winter and not allowing myself to get to soft while sitting for such long periods. Of course posture is very important.

[Awakening]

I am sure that we have all seen people of extraordinary shapes and sizes play the piano beautifully. Piano playing is primarily an intellectual activity and no amount of physical exercise per se is going to make us play better.
On the other hand,  a person who is fit and healthy will have physical and mental advantages over an unhealthy, unfit person. Although piano playing can cultivate our mind and even enhance our cognitive functions we must not neglect our physical being. It is only common sense that we should all exercise most days and watch our diet.  That way we can improve our mental and bodily well-being and get more out of life.
Cheers,
Robert.

I essentially agree with what Robert says.  Fitness is important, that's undeniable.  However, I don't think it's anyone's place as a piano teacher to advise a student about keeping in shape (unless playing is being negatively affected as result).  As a friend, mentor, or counsellor, I think it is perfectly plausible to give input on physical fitness, the same as with any other aspect of a person's life who is important to you.  But as a piano teacher, I'd say that such advice is unwarranted and could end up being very inappropriate.  It could have more of a negative effect than a positive one, and unless you know a way to tell the student that will be sure not to hurt anyone's feelings, I wouldn't say anything at all about it.  I was overweight for years and years, and no piano teacher of mine ever said anything about it.  I have since lost a great deal of weight, and the quality of my life improved drastically with my increasing physical fitness, including my piano playing.  However, I would not have for a second expected a teacher whose job is to instruct me in piano playing to give me advice concerning my weight.  Such advice probably would've been unwelcome and hurtful in my case, anyway.   

I won't go on; you get the point.  Fitness is great, it's important, it contributes to emotional well-being, but don't turn your piano lessons into physical education.  Not appropriate.     

[pianonut]

Dear All,

I disagree about not talking about physical fitness.  It helps your brain receive oxygen.  And, that has been proven to help memory.  I think that playing the piano IS like a sport (tho i don't mean the competitive kind).  It is very physical because you are #1 expected to keep up with lessons (lots of information), #2 sit for extended periods (need a strong back) #3 to have flexibility (can't do it if you are not able to hold your shoulders up) #4 to enjoy good nerve connection to arms, hands, feet (quick pedalling) #5  you feel better (not so grouchy) #6  it doesn't have to be any exercise in particular (swimming, bicycling, working out at the gym, tennis, etc.) so you are not a physical fitness coach  #7 you can teach this by example, too, if you don't feel like talking about it.

[Daniel_piano]

I don't agree that serious piano playing and practicing prevent you from being fit, healthy or even an athletes
Actually, I disagree that if you want to be a serious pianist you can't cultivate other interests
I know a wonderful concert pianists, who is also a great composers and teacher, a champion runner and a wonderful painter and writer, he knows several languages and has verious degrees in art, architecture and informatic but his other knowledge range from psychology and medicine as well as botanic and flowersculture

I think the belief that to master something you need a lot of time every day (like the whole day were only devoted to that activity) is a fallacious one and I don't think anything positive about practice who last 4 to 6 hours or even 12
Like people who said that when they were in university they studies 10 hours, or that they are at their instrument for 6 hours or that they do workouts of 5 hours

I don't care what poeple beliefs are, but this is completely useless
Spen 6 hours doing the same activity and you will find out that your brain disconnected several hours before
And as a matter of fact the people I know who most have mastered something are those who spend the "right" time (not anything big or long) doing lot of activities

Talking about fitness
No one would need 4 or 5 hours workout everyday
This is the best way to lose muscle, not to grow them
First of all you can't exercise all the days, because you need a rest day after a workout day and on second place 45 to 90 minutes are enough to be more than fit

And "professional" bodybuilding is all based on drugs and steroids
You will never become that huge if it weren't for chemical drugs
This is proved since that amount of muscle mass bear too much weight on the spine and the hip and therefore it could never be achieved by exercise alone

30 to 90 minutes everyday are enough to cultivate a lot of interestes from photography, to medicine, literature and drawings
And actually they should be enough to pass through the program of any school, but infortunately all the knowledge about the mechanism of learning are not known by most and so eveyone keep studying in the most inefficient and useless manner ever requiring more than thrice the necessary time

That being said, physical fitness is really important and of great help to playing in un instrument
The obvious effect are better concentration and better oxigenation
By having more lean mass and less fat mass (and this is not at all achieved by just being thin, since there are a lot of "fatty-thin" out there) circulation is improved and movements are more easy and muscles are less cold
Coordination is also improved and well as stability of the structure

Take a person that anyone consider healthy but that acutally has an high fat mass percentage and a lot lean mass percentage, who suffer from several nutritice deficiency as well as having a baf intake of phythocemical and antioxidants, who has tiny, bony aching arms who don't to go down for lack of circulatori supports, who is always spacey because of poor oxygenation and tend to slouch; well such a person will always play worse than a real healthy person

Daniel

[Brian Healey]

And "professional" bodybuilding is all based on drugs and steroids
You will never become that huge if it weren't for chemical drugs
This is proved since that amount of muscle mass bear too much weight on the spine and the hip and therefore it could never be achieved by exercise alone

As an aside, unrelated to piano playing, I have a good friend who is a competetive body builder and has never touched a drug or steriod in his life. Only a very small percentage of "bodybuilders" use these substances, and those that do are very short-lived, since all these substances are tested for regularly by bodybuilding's governing bodies. Natural substances like protein powder and such are frequently used, but I hardly consider anything like that a drug. It's very possible to build that type of muscle mass without the aid of steriods or other drugs. I've seen it done. Just wanted to clear up that misconception.

Peace,
Bri

[Daniel_piano]

As an aside, unrelated to piano playing, I have a good friend who is a competetive body builder and has never touched a drug or steriod in his life. Only a very small percentage of "bodybuilders" use these substances, and those that do are very short-lived, since all these substances are tested for regularly by bodybuilding's governing bodies. Natural substances like protein powder and such are frequently used, but I hardly consider anything like that a drug. It's very possible to build that type of muscle mass without the aid of steriods or other drugs. I've seen it done. Just wanted to clear up that misconception.

Peace,
Bri

It depends what kind of competition it is
The majority of bodybuilders use drugs and steroids indeed and that's why some bodybuilders felt the need of creating the "natural bodybuilding" while growth hormones and steroids are not used
There's a limit your muscle mass can develop naturally and this limit is highly exceeded by any Mr. Olympia contender
Actually, the whole reason why bodybuilding was not accepted as part of the olympiades is that there's no control for steroids of hormones, they're completely allowed within the contest and they're past of the contest, unlike other sports where there are indeed anti-doping controls

I don't know what kind of muscle mass you think can be built naturally, but it is more like the kind of muscle mass Zane, Pearl and Reeves had
Not all bodybuilders are okay with this but hard-core bodybuilding is now the establishment, and you can't reach the level of any hard-core bodybuilders without drugs and steroids because it is anatomically and physiologically impossible

People like Ruhl, Cutler, Coleman and others keep winning and keep using drugs and steroids hormones without control, they are allowed to

You can go in any bodybuilding newsgroup where any professional bodybuilders will answer you that all bodybuilders use drugs, hormones and steorids except the "natural" elitists
Many will tell you that this is okay because in hard-core bodybuilding mass is what counts not harmonious muscular develpment, other wil tell you they are disgusted with this sad state of affair; but it is the truth

Daniel

[pianonut]

I wasn't exactly thinking of body building.  our family joined the YMCA and it took me a half hour to figure out the machines again after taking a two month hiatus.  I don't always do what i teach.  especially in the winter.  the other day my daughter asked how many sit ups i could do.  i meekly said ten.  then i did them really fast in front of her, hoping to impress her.  she blandly looked at me, sat down and did fifty.

[pianowelsh]

I honestly think particularly at the college level that students ought to be made more aware of the importance of general fitness and should recieve tuition in alexander as a matter of course. So many people you speak to have bad backs, cramps in their legs, or just can't stand up after a practice session - to the point where it is considered the norm! What kind of a generation of pianists are being trained here?

[Daren]

I have done alot of bodybuilding in the past lifting weights before taking up the piano,and now regretting it.
Lifting weights using your arms and shoulders makes you stiff and makes it impossible to relax at the piano and use the correct mechanics of the arms to play the piano well.
You need to stretch the body parts that you will need to play piano.
Lifting weights will put too much tension in your arms and shoulders which is no good for natural movements to play the piano well.

Regards,
Daz

[dinosaurtales]

I do not hear any particular recommendations about fitness from piano teachers, but I have some observations.  I know some pianists who NEVER exercise, not one bit.  Many of them smoke heavily.  Some of them are quite good pianists with degrees in music and such.

I am less of a pianist, but work hard at it.  I have always done a lot of sports throughout my life, so I've been active and in good shape.  There's no doubt training your hands, arms, and fingers to perform a work consistently is an athletic thing, but I doubted how much real fitness was required till recently.  I have been working on a couple of pieces that require more "action" than others might, like Suggestione Diabolique.  One of the teachers played this for us a while back, and she did well, but she was heaving and sweating like a pig when she was done.  i've never even been close to oiut of breath or tired (except my fingers an dhands).  So in strenuous or lengthy pieces being in shape probably helps.

[pianowelsh]

Exactly! The repertoire of a virtuoso is physically and mentally taxing. I don't suggest that all pianists should be olympians but I think particularly sports which build stamina ie swimming running etc should be encouraged. I know what your saying darren. I know someone in my coll who has the same kind of issue. Really excersizes that stretch are best. Particularly ones which build chest and shoulder 'endurance'. My friend from summer course does use weights but really light ones and concentrates on the speed of movement rather than the weight. People tend to think that one can be a fine pianist and not be fit but perhaps we need to look at that a bit more People like Rubinstein performing in there 90's must have been pretty fit and to play all the virtuoso rep with all the rapid and precise body movements that this takes demands a certain type of highly developed muscular fitness. People tend to think fit= bulging muscle. But you do notice as i believe one of you said that some pianists breeze through athletic pieces with style and for others sometimes it's clearly more of a struggle. If excersize develops an ability to clearly and efficiently manipulate the muscles in coordination with the brain then it is a valuable asset to piano technique If however its excersize just for the sake of it it may not have such a connection ??! Essentially I think what I'm saying is a carefully devised scheme of excersize taking into account speed of movement and endurance of particular muscles and (oxygen supply) is likely to be of benefit. Bench pressing mountain climbing pull ups etc MAY not serve a pianist so well but at the same time may not be of detriment to them in the sense it is improving there general health and I belive the general benefit sof good health are known to all.