Deepest Music(ian) Ever?

[m1469]

Okay, I especially wanted to create a title that is about "the ___ (something) ever written/played" etc. (because it seemed fun).  But, I put it here because I think the actual subject matter fits under the description.

I am a lady with curiosities   - and I'm wondering something specific - Is "deep" music and playing, a niche market and by its very nature destined to not develop international followings?  Because, it seems like it is.  I am generally curious if a person were to seriously search the depths of their soul throughout their lives, and on top of that, be able to express it and communicate that in music, is it likely that it would actually be far-reaching, or is it somewhat the reverse?  Does expressing oneself deeply become something that only certain people end up resonating with and/or at certain times within a life vs. masses of people?

I am also curious if this is a quality that people are actually looking for in music, or is it strictly something else that seems more appealing? (Like, "entertainment" though I'm not suggesting entertainment can't be deep).  If there are works or particular performances of works which you feel might fit in this category, whatever works/artists those are, I'd be very interested to know if you'd be willing to share!  I'd also be interested in any other thoughts regarding this that you'd like to share.

[landru]

For me the deepest composer is Schubert. Listening (and playing *some* of them) to his sonatas and short pieces transcend most other things I listen to. They just reach a different place, a deeper place. I'm talking of pieces like his last sonata D960 and some of his lyrical impromptus. Even his symphonies are incredibly moving. To get that music down Schubert must have done some soul searching that maybe few artists have ever done.

On a lighter note, the musicians that played on the Titanic are certainly the deepest musicians I've ever heard of....

[pianoplayjl]

For me It is Rachmaninoff. Many of his music is very emotional. He makes use of the whole keyboard. One of the great examples is Elegy. It starts out with a low e flat octave and then is made of wide e lfat minor arpeggios while the right hand plays a melancholic melody. I also think Rachmaninoff PC3 2nd mvt is another example where it reaches climatic passions expressed in the mvt.

[ethure]

On a lighter note, the musicians that played on the Titanic are certainly the deepest musicians I've ever heard of....

So true!

[retrouvailles]

On a lighter note, the musicians that played on the Titanic are certainly the deepest musicians I've ever heard of....

I see what you did there...

[pianoplayjl]

I'm sure there would have been musicians who performed in concerts held several thousand feet below water. ...

[akasimone]

Hmm, I might want to take a stab at some of these questions...

- Is "deep" music and playing, a niche market and by its very nature destined to not develop international followings?  Because, it seems like it is.  I am generally curious if a person were to seriously search the depths of their soul throughout their lives, and on top of that, be able to express it and communicate that in music, is it likely that it would actually be far-reaching, or is it somewhat the reverse?  Does expressing oneself deeply become something that only certain people end up resonating with and/or at certain times within a life vs. masses of people?

Well.  On the other hand, I can't think of a very sure way to justify my answer.  But maybe I'll just say what I think with the caveat that maybe it is just what I want to believe.

It sounds like what you're asking is whether our deepest truest feelings are completely unique, so that if we could really express them, no one else would "get" it--or at least, no one else without similar life experiences.  Do those experiences define who we are to such an extent that maybe some of us can never understand each other?

I tend to believe that, while the actual things different individuals experience in life are certainly different from the outside, a human is a human, and we all experience the same range of inner emotion.  I, for example, have never experienced genocide first-hand, but I was really sad when I lost my grandfather--actually that might be a bad example because my grandfather did have a very long and almost totally healthy life, so there wasn't a sense of anger or unfairness or frustration.  But, some friends of mine lost a very close friend of theirs just shy of her 20th birthday, and they were very angry and heartbroken, maybe more than they ever had been in their lives.  Is their sadness less than that of a victim of worse misfortune--like genocide?  I guess I picked sort of a touchy subject and it's difficult to be presumptuous enough to say yes, their first-world sadness is equivalent, because objectively one of those events is clearly worse than the other.

I guess my point is that all of us, at some point, have probably felt despair beyond anything we think we've felt before.  However low we may be objectively, it feels like rock bottom.  So there are commonalities in our subjective experience, even though our objective experiences might be different

Oh, but wait... we were talking about music     I think one of the great things about music (and I guess art in general) is its ability to speak to subjective experience in a pretty deep way--deep enough to get to the bottom of ourselves, where, despite surface differences, we're all human with human thoughts and human feelings about our lives.  That sounds like a public service ad for arts education or something, but it's actually something I really believe...

I am also curious if this is a quality that people are actually looking for in music, or is it strictly something else that seems more appealing? (Like, "entertainment" though I'm not suggesting entertainment can't be deep).  If there are works or particular performances of works which you feel might fit in this category, whatever works/artists those are, I'd be very interested to know if you'd be willing to share!  I'd also be interested in any other thoughts regarding this that you'd like to share.

This I'm not sure about... I would definitely say that the top musical experiences of my life have truly moved me, in some way that seems like it should be called something more than "entertainment", but I think there I'm just getting into a debate of semantics; there's no good reason "entertaining" couldn't be used to describe an experience like that.  Maybe it was just a really high degree of entertainment...

(I'm rambling because I'm procrastinating.  Sorry >_<)

[m1469]

It sounds like what you're asking is whether our deepest truest feelings are completely unique, so that if we could really express them, no one else would "get" it--or at least, no one else without similar life experiences.  Do those experiences define who we are to such an extent that maybe some of us can never understand each other?

Yes, that's right, thank you .

I tend to believe that, while the actual things different individuals experience in life are certainly different from the outside, a human is a human, and we all experience the same range of inner emotion.  I, for example, have never experienced genocide first-hand, but I was really sad when I lost my grandfather--actually that might be a bad example because my grandfather did have a very long and almost totally healthy life, so there wasn't a sense of anger or unfairness or frustration.  But, some friends of mine lost a very close friend of theirs just shy of her 20th birthday, and they were very angry and heartbroken, maybe more than they ever had been in their lives.  Is their sadness less than that of a victim of worse misfortune--like genocide?  I guess I picked sort of a touchy subject and it's difficult to be presumptuous enough to say yes, their first-world sadness is equivalent, because objectively one of those events is clearly worse than the other.

I guess my point is that all of us, at some point, have probably felt despair beyond anything we think we've felt before.  However low we may be objectively, it feels like rock bottom.  So there are commonalities in our subjective experience, even though our objective experiences might be different

Oh, but wait... we were talking about music     I think one of the great things about music (and I guess art in general) is its ability to speak to subjective experience in a pretty deep way--deep enough to get to the bottom of ourselves, where, despite surface differences, we're all human with human thoughts and human feelings about our lives.  That sounds like a public service ad for arts education or something, but it's actually something I really believe...

This I'm not sure about... I would definitely say that the top musical experiences of my life have truly moved me, in some way that seems like it should be called something more than "entertainment", but I think there I'm just getting into a debate of semantics; there's no good reason "entertaining" couldn't be used to describe an experience like that.  Maybe it was just a really high degree of entertainment...

Thank you so much, I appreciate your thoughtful post very much - it's very helpful for me .

[m1469]

I also did mean to thank other people who have commented with wittiness and repertoire that you feel fits this category . I just got a little wrapped up in akasimone's post when I initially responded - but thank you .  

[brogers70]

For me it is Bach, no contest. Such a combination of structure, emotional intensity, beauty of line and abstraction, all rolled into one. 

[mozartk365]

for me, Mozart, Beethoven, and Chopin

[mike_lang]

As for musicians, Daniel Barenboim and Gidon Kremer are among the best, in my opinion; there is also a very good young conductor by the name of Vasily Petrenko (if you're in the UK, worth a trip to Liverpool).

[akasimone]

I am also curious if this is a quality that people are actually looking for in music, or is it strictly something else that seems more appealing? (Like, "entertainment" though I'm not suggesting entertainment can't be deep).  If there are works or particular performances of works which you feel might fit in this category, whatever works/artists those are, I'd be very interested to know if you'd be willing to share!  I'd also be interested in any other thoughts regarding this that you'd like to share.

You know, I just realized I have another partial-answer to this.  But maybe it's specific to me.  I was thinking about why I prefer Beethoven to Mozart and I realized it's personal--I like Beethoven better as a person.  Mozart I think of as the outgoing, cool-guy, ladies' man kind of guy who just had everything going for him.  Not that that makes him a bad guy.  But Beethoven had Real Troubles.  I guess this makes him seem more relatable to me (not that my problems are as real as his!).  Whether any of that truly comes across in the music or whether it just influences me because I already know it, I can't really say, it's too tangled.

I also tend to like performances by musicians I "know" (by which I mean, I've heard recordings of them giving lectures or masterclasses or even seen them live).

So, I don't know, maybe people are just looking for something to relate to.

[starlady]

Mozart I think of as the outgoing, cool-guy, ladies' man kind of guy who just had everything going for him.  Not that that makes him a bad guy.  But Beethoven had Real Troubles.  I guess this makes him seem more relatable to me (not that my problems are as real as his!). 

That's the usual picture people have of those great composers, and it does fit the general tone of their work.   But if you look at their biographies, Mozart actually had some serious troubles, ill-health and poverty, while Beethoven was financially comfortable and in pretty good health up to his last year. He suffered great emotional turmoil, true, but a lot of it was frankly his own fault.*  So you can't always  know how a person's life is reflected in his music!  --s.

*Like the whole story with his nephew, and getting into fights with half of Vienna.  The deafness, obviously not.

[_achilles_]

I am also curious if this is a quality that people are actually looking for in music, or is it strictly something else that seems more appealing? (Like, "entertainment" though I'm not suggesting entertainment can't be deep).  If there are works or particular performances of works which you feel might fit in this category, whatever works/artists those are, I'd be very interested to know if you'd be willing to share!  I'd also be interested in any other thoughts regarding this that you'd like to share.

I would say that I definitely love music based a lot off of how emotional it is.. I would also say that only emotional people (whether they show it or not) are the only ones who write beautiful emotional music. This part of why I love classical music whereas I only like other types of music. Listening to some works by rachmaninoff and prokofiev have probably been the most emotional times of my life just because I felt so in tune with what the composer was feeling. These experiences have widened my emotional range and have given me more awareness of my emotions in general. In fact, these emotions are what drive me to become a great pianist because my dream is to someday be able to play the music I can hear in my head but have never heard in real life.

[akasimone]

But if you look at their biographies, Mozart actually had some serious troubles, ill-health and poverty

Fair enough; I never did watch more than 20 minutes (if that) of Amadeus

Beethoven was financially comfortable and in pretty good health up to his last year. He suffered great emotional turmoil, true, but a lot of it was frankly his own fault.

Maybe it's that emotional turmoil I find so relatable, then.  And his weakness--it's interesting and sad how a person's despair can make them act so self-destructively.  But then so much of his late work seems to be about overcoming all that and just taking joy in art and being human and alive in the universe; it becomes all the more powerful in contrast.

Which isn't to say that Mozart was always so happy-go-lucky; I'm sure he had his demons.  And I'm sure he also wrote music about overcoming tragedy, I just don't know as much about his work.  The Requiem comes to mind, though.  I've always loved that.

[pianoplayjl]

But on the other hand Mozart could hear what his music sounded like while Beethoven struggled to. His music represents what he felt. His later music is more emotional. Mozart: his music is great but not as great as Beethoven in my opinion. His music lacks emotional depth unlike Beethoven. He can finish a work in weeks while Beethoven does his in years.

[werq34ac]

But on the other hand Mozart could hear what his music sounded like while Beethoven struggled to. His music represents what he felt. His later music is more emotional. Mozart: his music is great but not as great as Beethoven in my opinion. His music lacks emotional depth unlike Beethoven. He can finish a work in weeks while Beethoven does his in years.

Perhaps you do not truly understand Mozart if you say he lacks emotional depth. Simplicity does not mean shallow.

Fair enough; I never did watch more than 20 minutes (if that) of Amadeus

Maybe it's that emotional turmoil I find so relatable, then.  And his weakness--it's interesting and sad how a person's despair can make them act so self-destructively.  But then so much of his late work seems to be about overcoming all that and just taking joy in art and being human and alive in the universe; it becomes all the more powerful in contrast.

Which isn't to say that Mozart was always so happy-go-lucky; I'm sure he had his demons.  And I'm sure he also wrote music about overcoming tragedy, I just don't know as much about his work.  The Requiem comes to mind, though.  I've always loved that.

The A minor sonata comes to mind. He wrote it soon after the death of his mother.

[pianoplayjl]

OK maybe you're right but it's just that I like Beethoven alot, for some reason even though as you say Mozart's music has just as much emtional depth. It's just my opinion, you know.

[akasimone]

But on the other hand Mozart could hear what his music sounded like while Beethoven struggled to. His music represents what he felt. His later music is more emotional. Mozart: his music is great but not as great as Beethoven in my opinion. His music lacks emotional depth unlike Beethoven. He can finish a work in weeks while Beethoven does his in years.

I wouldn't say it lacks emotional depth... It's just a different sort of depth, maybe.  Not as... heavy?

And actually, I think you pointed out another thing that makes me inclined to like Mozart a little less--composing came so easily to him.  I guess I'm a little jealous  Though Beethoven was a brilliant pianist, of course, so I should probably be more jealous of him...

The A minor sonata comes to mind. He wrote it soon after the death of his mother.

Oh, yes, I was thinking about that too.  I'm actually starting to learn that now.

[starlady]

Mozart may have written his light-hearted music as an escape from his troubles, or because his audience wanted it. Or maybe he was one of those lucky folks who can be cheerful even at the dentist!  And maybe Beethoven was one of those angsty people who feel tormented and anguished even when their lives look like they ought to  be fine.   It doesn't really matter to us, they both wrote great music: it just shows that you can't always relate the facts of composer's lives to the music they write. 

--s.

[jamom13]

If you haven't, you must listen to Jacqueline du Pre, especially playing the Elgar Cello Concerto.

[pbryld]

Is it me or did this turn into a thread that is very best-composer-ever-like?

When I first read this, i immediately thought which musician's interpretation is the deepest, not which composer composed the music with the most depth.

Personally I find Liszt's music to be the most emotional, but most other famous composers' music is a delight as well. The best Liszt player I've heard is Stephen Hough, particularly his interpretation of Bénédiction de Dieu dans la Solitude (or how it's spelled..). Not only is the piece itself one of the best ever written, Hough's recording is pretty much impeccable.
It portrays the feeling of tranquility perfectly. It creates a picture of the fascination with solitude and death and makes you accept it.

It's just amazing.