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Topic: need an urgent reply  (Read 1610 times)

Offline Tash

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need an urgent reply
on: September 05, 2004, 10:48:11 AM
ok i have a music assessment due on wednesday and in one part we have to analyse the non-harmonic tones in Handel's The Harmonious Blacksmith. so my question is, there's this one chord where i can't decide if it's a chord IV or chord VII so does anyone know? it's the one with the red square around it. oh hang on no it's not i've done the wrong one it's the one  BEFORE the red square damn i circled the wrong one




And also, is there a special name for when notes go in the pattern like ascending in thirds, eg. C E D F E G etc.? i can't remember and i need to know!

thanks heaps
'J'aime presque autant les images que la musique' Debussy

Offline Daevren

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Re: need an urgent reply
Reply #1 on: September 05, 2004, 02:49:01 PM
The last four eight notes, before the B major chord in the last bar create a F#7 chord. That makes sense. Those two chords together form a V-I. So either its a modulation to B major, a temporary modulation to B major or its V/V-V-I and after B major we should see a E major chord soon.

Three very similar ways of looking at it.

A# and E also have strong voice leading functions. A# leads to B and E to F. I wonder if E really has a harmonic function here.

I don't understand why you say you think its either IV or VII. I guess it must be a minor piece. In that case, the same applies. But in that case the roman numbers would be IV-VII in C# minor. I guess the modulation might be more probably in that case because B does not resolve to C#m as it resolves to E.

Offline bernhard

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Re: need an urgent reply
Reply #2 on: September 05, 2004, 07:04:01 PM
I agree with what Daevren said. Here is another way to look at it:

The piece is in E major. The section you printed is the first part of the theme, and  ends in the chord of the dominant (B major is the dominant of E major). As you proceed to the second part (which you have not provided), it will end in E major (the tonic), again as usual.(As Daevren predicted)

So the end chord there is B major (V or dominant). What are the two previous chords?

Here are some ways to find out:

1. By ear:

The chord you want E-C# is incomplete. It could be either A major ( AC#E - IV – subdominant) or C# minor (C#EG# - VI – Sub mediant) Which one is it? Well, complete the chord (that is add the missing note) and see which of the two chords sound better. I trust that you will find that C# minor is far more pleasing to the ear. So here is your answer: the chord is VI, the submediant chord in E major, C#minor.

The chord following is also incomplete: A#-C#. A# does not belong to the scale of E major, so this either a chromatic note, or Handel is modulating to a new tonal centre. By ear you can quickly convince yourself that that it is F# major (F#A#C#), a chord that does not belong at all in E major – hence the accidental A# - and therefore no roman numerals can be attached to it.

2. By chord theory.

The chord progression in this case is C# minor – F# major – B major.

If you take E major as your key, then this progression is VI – n/a – V.
But if you take B major as your key then you have II – V – I

3. By cadences:

If you take E major as your key, then you have some sort of imperfect cadence.
However if you take B major as your key, then you have a perfect cadence V-I.

So my final answer would be: The chord you are interested in is C# minor (VI of E major, II of B major).

I would argue that Handel modulated to the dominant B major making it the new tonic, so C# minor is the supertonic (II) of B major leading to a perfect cadence in that key.

I hope this helps.
Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline monk

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Re: need an urgent reply
Reply #3 on: September 05, 2004, 11:52:18 PM
Bernhard, it's much simpler.

If one knows the style of Handels time, one knows that this here would be the most typical solution if it would be a full 4-voice harmonization:



The chords:

B major with F# in the bass
G# minor (two times)
E major with "Sixth ajoutee"
F# major
B major

So the chord in question would most typically be E major with sixth ajoutee. -> IV of B major.

The B major in this case is the V of the tonic E; if a section of a piece is ending on the V, we Germans call that "Trugschluss". Of course the listener knows that, although we have reached a temporary conclusion, there has to follow another section that leads back to the tonic.

Best Wishes,
Monk

Offline Tash

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Re: need an urgent reply
Reply #4 on: September 06, 2004, 02:02:16 PM
thanks people that was very helpful i had managed to get myself in some strange state of confusion but i think i've figured it out now so it's all good.

thankyou!
'J'aime presque autant les images que la musique' Debussy
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