Is my digital piano handicapping me ?

[sausagefingers]

Ok guys so I'm getting a bit serious about this piano buisness. Im practing on a very cheap Technics sw-px552 which I acquired from .....god knows where. I've just read on the forum somewhere that all but a select few of digital pianos "destroy your technique"

-is this true?
-should I stop playing it?


hope someone can help/discuss this as it must be a legitimate question for a lot of us out there who don't have the space , the money or the understanding neighbours required to play an acoustic on a regular basis. 

[mike_lang]

I wouldn't say that they destroy your technique so much as your ear and imagination (but of course the two things are related) . . . it has a lot to do with the lack of possibilities for subtlety of touch and pedaling.  I'll grant that I haven't done a great deal of experimentation on high-end digital pianos, but since you mentioned that yours is on the inexpensive side, I think it holds true . . .

[sausagefingers]

This might sound stupid but is it worth stopping playing it altogether until I can afford something better? or will I be able to rectify the way it influences my playing at a later date without it doing too much damage?

[mike_lang]

This might sound stupid but is it worth stopping playing it altogether until I can afford something better? or will I be able to rectify the way it influences my playing at a later date without it doing too much damage?

Sorry, destroy was a bit of a strong word for me to use; I would just say that it doesn't encourage the same sort of inner ear development, as well as subtlety of pedaling and touch that an acoustic instrument does.  I hardly think it is worth giving up playing, but take any opportunity you can to play on an acoustic piano!

[starstruck5]

For a while, all I had was a 60 note electronic keyboard with no authentic piano action at all - It took me about a week to adapt back to an acoustic - I don't think you need worry about any damage being done - if you are musical in the first place, you will find a way.

[kellyc]

Hi : Digital even top of the line isn't the same thing as acoustical piano. In our modern world you should learn to play on both. If you can't afford or have room for an acoustical right now, then look for places where you can play one. There are piano stores, where you can try out the instruments. Hotels which have pianos just sitting there. Friends who might own one. Relative who might have one. The list is endless. Play both however you can and you will be the better keyboardist for it.

Kelly

[flyinfingers]

I know mine is.  But I'm not allowed to get a piano until I've been back to playing for a year.   Anyway, my husband is like, what's wrong with the digital?  I mean, come on, so I play one of the lower keys and I said, Do you hear that ping noise or whatever you call it?  He, of course, says no.   I'm disliking mine even more after this post.

[Bob]

Haha.  If only there were some way to convince him that the real thing is better than a digital/synthetic version.... 

[_achilles_]

I've got a Casio PS-20 and I think it does a very good job for a digital piano. There isn't the same level as feeling but there definitely is a good amount.. I would rather play my digital piano then some cheap acoustic upright that's out of tune or has partially broken keys. And having a digital piano has it's benefits.. mostly that you can practice with headphones and transportation is easy.

For reference I can play songs like Rach prelude op 3 no 2 and it sounds pretty good on the digital, but that was definitely the first song where I was like "If I'm going to get much better digital might not cut it anymore".

Edit: This is a few weeks later.. I went to a piano store and tried some higher end digital and would no longer recommend by piano unless it's all you can afford. I am now saving for a Roland HP 302 I think.. still need to try some others but I'm pretty sure.. the roland just felt so good to my fingers

[jimbo320]

IMHO (For the stone writers)
Well figure out the people saying it. Acoustic players. To them their abilities would suffer. To people like me who play mostly DP's although I can realize the difference I don't find it "destroying"
anything.
If you can't comfortably change between the two then pick one or the other.
Others will say you for sure need to have an acoustic piano. Bunk! You need what you need.
I've got a couple of DP's that any acoustic player could play on without harming their technique. In fact, I've had several "acoustic only" players be amazed when they finally tried them out.
Sure there's a difference, duh. But it's an instrument. How you sound and the technique you use is you. Play whatever you want.
Sorry for the rant. I just get pissed when I read some people saying that you should ONLY play on acoustics...

[Bob]

What are the digitals that feel like an acoustic?

[riskarb]

Best electronic pianos in my opinion:

1. Yamaha Avant Garde series (almost perfect replications of an acoustic including the piano's vibration and pedal effects)
2. Yamaha Clavinova (CLP and CVP series...... the better models with graded hammers and wooden keys)
3. Roland V-piano (NOT their other keyboards.... I found the touch on Roland's very poor with the exception of this model)

To answer your other questions:

- No, I don't think an electronic will harm your performance on an acoustic if you're using the above type e-pianos. I use mostly an electronic at the moment (for my apartment) and there's nothing material lost in translation when I go to a grand piano at my parents home. Obviously, if I had a much larger space and was playing for people beyond a 5 metre radius, I'd go for an acoustic.

- Even with graded hammer effects, I find the above electronic pianos have a pretty fast and similar action relative to most acoustics ...... much like a Kawaii or Steinway. I wish there was a way to capture the Yamaha acoustic action in an electronic (Yamaha acoustics action have a  unique moment of gravity that makes it feel more precise and even).... but this is arguably minutae that only performers would obsess about.

- Sound quality/power: One of your biggest criteria for an electronic should be the number and power of the speakers..... the more powerful (and expensive!) models can create a sound that easily fills a room or small hall.

- One feature I love on the e-pianos is the digital reverb and concert grand sounds. It fools me into thinking I'm playing in a much larger venue and I feel alot more motivated to keep practicing. The tinny sound of an upright or even a baby grand doesn't work for me....... for me, I'd rather have a really good electronic (e.g., Yamaha Avant Garde) or a full-size quality grand..... nothing in between.

- Sorry I can't comment on Casios as I havent played them in years, but I'd be very surprised if they were as good as the Yamaha digitals. Mind you, the most recent winner of the world amateur piano competition was raised/practices on digitals (gentleman from Martinique.. I believe he had a  casio) and he seems to have coped pretty well!

[jimbo320]

Bob,
My Yamaha CP5 is the one I have that acts like an acoustic. Try to get the chance to try one out. You'd be amazed...

[flyinfingers]

Jimbo, I'm no expert but I have the Technics same model no. and I don't see how you can call it cheap.  I mean, I paid two grand for it new back in the year 2000 and I think it's a nice digital piano but I have no other opinions on digitals.  Well, I solved the problem and got another piano.  But now I'm going to give my Technics to my sister and she can pay the shipping as she had a Baldwin baby grand from the '70s (sold it quite awhile back) and the only use it ever got was me paying her rent to sleep under it in the spare bedroom.  HA!
How stupid is that?
Bob, my husband never wants to argue with me so there is no such thing as "convincing" in this house.  If mama ain't happy then nobody happy!  One of his submarine buddies told me that and I've loved that saying since the day it was said to me!

[pianoyutube]

I've been playing a DP kawai CA63, a grand kawai, and an acoustic upright Hupfeld.

The digital piano is much better than the upright. Better sound, and better key action. And It allows me to play whenever I want.

The grand is the best of all three, but I think the digital piano is worth the money I paid for it. And I don't think it can be negative in any way: It's always in tune, and has a nice key action, I don't see how can it harm my technique or ear.

[opium_64]

Ok guys so I'm getting a bit serious about this piano buisness. Im practing on a very cheap Technics sw-px552 which I acquired from .....god knows where. I've just read on the forum somewhere that all but a select few of digital pianos "destroy your technique"

-is this true?
-should I stop playing it?


hope someone can help/discuss this as it must be a legitimate question for a lot of us out there who don't have the space , the money or the understanding neighbours required to play an acoustic on a regular basis. 

It's not a real piano, therefore I do not believe in them. You cannot obtain anything spiritual out of playing a machine.

[jimbo320]

Jimbo, I'm no expert but I have the Technics same model no. and I don't see how you can call it cheap.  

I don't recall calling it cheap. When did you think I did?
I was answering the digital handicapping question. That's all I mostly play on. Partly because I move from gig to gig and partly because you can buy a lot of equipment for the price of an acoustic. The difference is obvious but you can have the right digital and not suffer any great lose of technique...

[drazh]

Hi
I had a yamaha alp 220 and was happy with it .but only after buying a yamaha u300s I  found out the the differences .if you want to play seriously buy an acoustic
Thanks

[rmbarbosa]

"you cannot obtain anything spiritual out of playing a machine"...
But ... my grand Bluthner, is it not a machine?
And the Organs, are they not machines?
I have a grand and a digital Roland HP. The sound of my grand is much better than the one of my digital, of course. But the feeling of the keyboard is the same. And I can use the half pedal, in my Roland, as I do in my grand.
So, I think it`s perfectly possible to learn in a good digital. Latter, when one can go from a digital to a grand, perhaps one have more technique (like a football player who begins playing in the beach; when he go to a stadium, he feels that all is easier. Pelé, Garrincha, Maradona, CR 7...)

[Bob]

How are digitals for things like repetition or the bottom of the keyboard feel?  It's been a while, but I tried out some and couldn't ever find one that felt right.  The keyboard beds tended to feel spongy/rubbery and they couldn't do repeated notes very well.  I did like the Yamaha "grand piano" action, but it was still slow. 

And key weight.  That was another one. 

And a real pedal instead of an on/off switch.

Have things improved?

[Derek]

I think things have improved dramatically. I have a Roland HP-302...and it is definitely the most playable digital I've ever used. So much so it makes me feel like practicing classical pieces again because the action is so good. I'm well aware it is still not the real article, but the technology is definitely progressing. Repeats, continuous pedal response...a lot of these things are there and getting very good. When I play on my parents' Petrof Model III at their home, though, the digital seems "small" by comparison (in terms of how much range is possible, for one thing). I do hope I will have a decent acoustic to play on again some day. The HP-302 will tide me over til then and still be an excellent instrument I will use a lot, though.

[flyinfingers]

Sorry Jimbo.  It was sausageguy, the original poster.  I don't think it's cheap; I might keep it anyway so I can play at night with the headphones on, but after I get my piano tomorrow, might not ever want to play it again.

[keypeg]

I know mine is.  But I'm not allowed to get a piano until I've been back to playing for a year.   Anyway, my husband is like, what's wrong with the digital?  I mean, come on, so I play one of the lower keys and I said, Do you hear that ping noise or whatever you call it?  He, of course, says no.   I'm disliking mine even more after this post.

Um - other female here.  When I read "I'm not allowed.... " I thought a parent was making rules for their child. One hopes that the parent knows enough to make wise decisions.  In this case it is your partner.  I consult fellow adults and may defer to their advice when their knowledge is greater than mine.  If he is a pianist and maybe also a piano teacher, then he may know what your needs are, assuming that you are inexperienced in piano.  How does it benefit your growth as a pianist or piano student to stay on a digital for a year?  (What is his reasoning?)  If he doesn't have the required knowledge or good reasoning, maybe that decision needs a rethink.  I don't see a spouse "allowing" or "disallowing".  Sorry for sounding opinionated.

[flyinfingers]

Oh, I was just being sarcastic!  I don't take orders very easily that's why I was never in the military!   He's fine with my new piano!  Sorry for the confusion.

[keypeg]

Oh, I was just being sarcastic!  I don't take orders very easily that's why I was never in the military!   He's fine with my new piano!  Sorry for the confusion.

Got it.     So do you have an acoustic now?   I moved from a poor digital to a decent digital because my thin walls wouldn't make an acoustic practical.  I consulted with my teacher on the properties it should have, and spent 2 days trying out instruments in two stores, and eventually bought what I have from still a third.

[Bob]

I suppose another argument is the sound quality, a real vibrating string vs. all the layers of edited sound coming out of a speaker.

[Derek]

I suppose another argument is the sound quality, a real vibrating string vs. all the layers of edited sound coming out of a speaker.

Again, of course it still isn't the real article, since all the sound is coming out of two circular discs on a digital piano rather than the entire instrument. But the latest developments in digital piano technology have come so far. One thing I've always loved when playing an acoustic grand piano is striking a note in mid-range and hearing a rich sound full of overtones, and a slightly out of tune unison that sounds like weeeeeeeoooooooowwwwwweeeeeee etc. The Roland HP-302 captures this wonderfully.

Also, older digital pianos looped the decay after the sample runs out. On modern digitals, the sound combines high quality sampling with real time acoustic modelling, so the decay is natural and smooth, no looping. Cross string resonance is also emulated. If you hold down the damper and strike a key, anywhere on the keyboard, you can hear resonance in other strings just as you would on an acoustic grand.

Another thing I noticed that these new digitals have that I really enjoy is that the physical sensation of "thunk" and the subsequent vibrations, especially in the bass strings, is quite strong. The speakers are oriented such that the keyboard itself vibrates with the sound, just as one feels the vibrations of the bass strings on an acoustic piano. The effect is remarkable and surprising when one has only experienced the older, sampled variety of digital piano. However, of course it is still an approximation to a real acoustic piano. It appears to be more than adequate for an amateur whose only goal is to thoroughly enjoy playing classical pieces as well as improvisation.

*edit* one more thing. A well tuned acoustic grand has a gorgeous high range that sings, and almost sounds like a whistle tone. On my old Roland F-100, everything in the upper ranges sounded like a very tinny and weak "plink." On this Roland HP-302, you hear the hammer strike, the resonance in all the strings that do not have dampers, and a beautiful ringing sound...very similar to an acoustic grand.

Sorry...I'm just a rather big fan of this instrument. I do still look forward to having frequent access to a good acoustic piano again someday, though.

[flyinfingers]

Keypeg, read my post, please, at the instrument topic.  I can say now with 100 percent certainty, there is nothing like my rebuilt/restored 1901 Knabe as compared to the digital.  Sorry to say that, but it is so true.  I can actually feel the keys!  The sound is amazing!  My new piano is absolutely acoustically beautiful!  I have no desire to ever touch my "cheap" -- as described by sausagefingers -- technics digital piano again.  I would like to donate it to some aspiring child locally who would like to play but doesn't have the means.  I thought about keeping it to play at night with my headphones, but I don't know.  I'd have to give it a few weeks and see about that.  Right now, there's no comparison.  Even a decent upright restored is better than the digital, in my opinion.  You can get those pretty reasonable because I would consider that any day over something new and I, personally, would not ever play a digital piano again!  Maybe it's because my guy Clint @ www.grandamericanpiano.com is so awesome!  

[rmbarbosa]

Derek, my Roland is a HP-307 and you are 100% right. With headphones, it sounds exactly like a grand acoustic. Without headphones, however, I feel a great diference.

[keypeg]

Flyingfingers, got it, but what's the point?  I have walls so thin that I turn my kitchen fan on at night when I'm working so that the neighbor's snoring doesn't distract me.  I am exceedingly aware of the aliveness of an acoustic.  But I don't have the money for a good one, and even if I did, I would rarely be able to practice or play.  I am surrounded by no less than 4 neighboring families, 3 of whom would hear my instrument.

[Derek]

maybe find a used upright, save to get it tuned and regulated, and then buy a ton of sound proofing foam and stick it under and behind the piano or something. as for cheap digitals, the cheapest I could imagine going is the roland fp-4f. I think they're around 1100 usually? It has the same brain as the hp-302. the speakers aren't that great, but if you have headphones it'd be superb.  Below 1100, you may have to turn to casio privia. They are OK, and depending on your tastes might be just right.

[ardi1230]

I say that lower end digital pianos may handicap you. For example, I just upgraded to a Yamaha P-95 from a Yamaha NP-30. The difference in touch was immeasurable.  Also, Whenever I play on a grand at school, my playing improves dramatically. I think it would be because of the improved touch and sound of the grand piano. Keeping in mind that I learned how to play on a grand piano, and because of migration, I could no longer own it. There is just no comparison between my performance on grands, the P-95, and the NP-30.

I have not had a chance to try out any high-end digital pianos, so my scope is a bit limited. But my advice is, go for a good acoustic when starting to learn the piano. If you've developed proper technique and habits, and you're forced to, get a good digital, but only if you have to. The top two things, and the only things(assuming there are 88 keys), you should look at are the touch and the sound. If possible, compare with  a grand piano and see which one is the most similar. Pedals might be necessary, but are usually part of the package. If the piano fullfills the above conditions, then I would get it.

Overall, I don't think that a digital piano in general will handicap you, in the sense that a digital, regardless of quality will cap you. If it's a high end, it shouldn't be to bad (I'm guessing). Entry level yamaha's will be ok if you have the right foundations. If you're starting from scratch, use an acoustic or a high end digital. As I said, I started on a grand, moved to digital, and play much better when I play on a grand, which is only occasionally.


Hope this answers some of your questions.

[jmanpno]

I'm a professional pianist and do not own a good quality piano and play far better than most... Stop making excuses--find a place to practice!

[tunneller]

You will be handicapped if you play on anything other than a Steinway grand, re-tuned every week.

Ok... kidding - a bit -  but there is for sure as much variation in accoustic as in digital. Mine, DP, is a high-end Clavinova. The (few) times I've played on an accoustic piano (friends house, hotels, etc) then my playing is terrible - imbalanced keys, couple of keys being horribly out of tune, stuck pedal, etc. I guess there is a skill to learn that you can be able to play on a broader variety of instruments without it messing up your rhythm.

... And yet, that said. When I listen to recordings of pianists (playing on Steinways) they seem to be able to get shapes of notes that seem to me impossible on the Clavinova (which would make sense as it has only sampled a "few" such). But I've also tried to get similiar sounds on crappy accoustics and definitely not been able to.

As long as your DP has weighted touch then you should be able to make good progress.. until you have space for the Steinway :-)

Regards, T.