Very troubling problem......

[scarbo87]

I am having a very difficult problem regarding fingering, that I am sure we have all gone through at some time or another. Here it is :  About a month ago I performed Chopin's
fourth ballade. Most of it went fine, but there were more than enough parts that could have been better. They were technical passages that, no matter HOW hard I worked, I could not make come out right.(I actually remember practicing ALL NIGHT on just one passage, only to make it worse)

Well, low and behold, the day after that performance I was walking around a music store in Pasadena and came across another edition, and in that edition were COMPLETELY different fingereings than the ones I had used.COMPLETELY.
So when I got home I tried out those fingerings, and, like a magic trick, my technical problems were instantly solved.

So my question is, how should I, in the future, be 100% sure
that I have the best possible fingerings before I start slaving for hours over the keyboard?? I know the obvious answer would be to expirement over and over, but this takes time, and, even through expirementaion, you cannot always
achieve your goals.

[cellodude]

Ummm....

1) Get a teacher?

2) Ask Bernhard.

Y'know we should have a section named 'Ask Bernhard'. Over on the cello discussion board they have their very own agony aunt for cello matters and a section called 'Ask Betty Lou'.  

How about it Bernhard?

Sorry for being OT,

dennis lee

[Shagdac]

I often have difficulty playing with fingering exactly as written Scarbo87.  I'm sure everyone has at one time or another. My teachers have always told me they are written in for several reasons, either for making it what they consider easier for the pianist to play, or specifically to get a desired effect or sound. Many times the pieces will be edited and not representative of what the original composer wrote anyway. I usually try to use what is written, but if it seems difficult or unatural to me, then yes I experiment with different fingerings....it doesn't really take that long to realize which feels most comfortable and natural. The most important consideration when alterning the fingering is will you produce the desired effect with whatever fingering you choose? If so, then it doesn't matter. With everyone's handspan and finger length being different, fingering is not what I would consider "one size fits all".

Sometimes I have found it easier to just play the piece without looking at the fingering if it is something that has givin me trouble. The composer knows where the notes are going, and what desired effect they are trying to produce, so if possible, yes, I would say their fingering is best to use if possible. But once you are familiar with a piece, if you can produce the same desired effect and play more comfortably using different fingering, theres no reason not to.

There are different ideas and fingering systems out there. For example, if you look under :
www.fingering.ch  
you will see there are alot of other ideas on this subject. Do you have a teacher? If so, what do they suggest? Also, you may want to look at several different scores of the same piece to see different variations in the fingerings. I know you don't want to spend hours experiementing, but it shouldn't take that long, just see what feels right for you, while being careful that your fingering is not changing the end result.

S

[Egghead]

I am having a very difficult problem regarding fingering, that I am sure we have all gone through at some time or another. Here it is :  ....I could not make come out right.(I actually remember practicing ALL NIGHT on just one passage, only to make it worse)

So my question is, how should I, in the future, be 100% sure
that I have the best possible fingerings before I start slaving for hours over the keyboard?? I know the obvious answer would be to expirement over and over, but this takes time, and, even through expirementaion, you cannot always
achieve your goals.

I have (and had) similar problems though at a much more elementary level. I really look forward to the replies to your question!

One thing I learnt is: A really short section should improve after short practice. If it doesnt, the fingering is *probably* not optimal yet. To me, it often seems actually isolating what is causing the problem is the biggest challenge (it tends to be my brain, and I have a really hard time isolating that ).

Try to narrow it down as much as possible, isolate the really hard bits, deal with them.

...
Consider the very first mordent ...
...start fingering the hard bits and move backwards from there.

Experiment a lot on those. But make sure you are not overdoing it: have lots and lots of short breaks/relax. Otherwise, if the muscles you are using start to tire, you just get random results.

And please write experiment not "expirement". It depresses me!    
Egghead

[Egghead]

Ummm....

1) Get a teacher?

2) Ask Bernhard.

Y'know we should have a section named 'Ask Bernhard'. Over on the cello discussion board they have their very own agony aunt for cello matters and a section called 'Ask Betty Lou'.  

How about it Bernhard?

Sorry for being OT,

dennis lee

I thought we have a section like that. It is called the student section.

[Daevren]

Always question the fingerings recommended in the score. Even if its the composers fingerings.

Plus, there isn't a universal perfect fingering solution for every piece. One fingering may be better for you while someone else prefers another.

[nick]

I would say not only the sound and comfort, but the sight of how the passage looks when played is important. Economy of motion rules in my opinion. Also keep in mind facts like fingers 3,4, and 5 are more difficult in some instances because of the common tendon issue, ie sometimes 3 to 5 with adjacent keys is best depending on the speed. Experiment with different fingerings when there is a problem spot where you are not sure.
Nick

[bernhard]

Have a look here:

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1081604995
(Reply no. 6)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

I
There are different ideas and fingering systems out there. For example, if you look under :
www.fingering.ch  
you will see there are alot of other ideas on this subject.

What did you think of this e-book? Have you read it? I read the preface and although it seemed interesting, I was a bit frightened of the awful English translation. Can you make a critical review perhaps?

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Askenaz7]

Hey Bernhard, relax just you have to reexamine your fingering.Always follow the best fingering for the sound even this is hard for learning again the piece .You don't want to be a mediocrity.The secret is to be provident about the fingering of it's piece who wrote it and etc.
Make a list with the best editions for each composer ,this sould help.
You sould see the Liszt's fingering on his daily exercises,amazing things .He could play a scale in 3rd's with the most incredible fingering and perfect sound.

[bernhard]

Hey Bernhard, relax just you have to reexamine your fingering.

Er... I think you mean "Hey Scarbo87"

He could play a scale in 3rd's with the most incredible fingering and perfect sound.

Have you heard him?

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[super_ardua]

When you ussually face a technical problem,  it means you are doing something wrong

[Askenaz7]

Er... I think you mean "Hey Scarbo87"


Have you heard him?

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Best wishes,
Bernhard

No me,my teacher of teacher ..student of Liszt Siloti.
Hey I'm kidding I mean the fingering of the 3rds from the book daily exercises that wrote Liszt for the perfection of his technique.The book created from his notes.

[Sark1]

First of all when playing any Chopin, the Paderewski edition is the best to use in my opinion and in the opinion of many professionals.  Get the Parderewski edition and use his fingereings, but they will not lways be perfect for you.  The best rule for fingereing is common sense.  Whichever is comfortable for you and works best is probably the right one, but do try to stick with Paderewski's because there are certain places where a certain fingereing gives a certain tone which is necessary.

[Max]

I wouldn't recommend learning the music from the Paderewski edition...lots of inaccurate dynamics, and he changes notes. The Dover edition is generally best, I've never had problems with any of their fingering, and they're very good quality.

[Sketchee]

I wouldn't recommend learning the music from the Paderewski edition...lots of inaccurate dynamics, and he changes notes. The Dover edition is generally best, I've never had problems with any of their fingering, and they're very good quality.

A lot of people don't like the Mikuli (Dover) editions of Chopin.  Carl Mikuli was a student of Chopin as well as his teaching assistant later; some say it because of this that he changes the music at points to suit what he thought his teacher would have liked.  I don't mind the editions myself but just thought I'd mention that note.  Plus Dover publishes very sturdy books.  The Milstein version of Liszt's Anees is excellent.

As for fingerings, I always seem to find a comfortable fingering.  Then again other pianists always say I have odd fingering choices.  More recently I've been following written fingerings and even changed them in works I've know for a while.  After I really have a piece in memory, I find it really easy to change the fingering.  It also helps me remember the piece for some reason.

[xvimbi]

I wouldn't recommend learning the music from the Paderewski edition...lots of inaccurate dynamics, and he changes notes. The Dover edition is generally best, I've never had problems with any of their fingering, and they're very good quality.

A lot of people don't like the Mikuli (Dover) editions of Chopin.

Keep in mind that not everything in the Paderewski Edition was edited by Paderewski. There is quite a bit that has been edited by Mikuli! I have found people bashing the Mikuli version and praising the Paderewski Edition (as well as the other way around), although both versions had been edited by Mikuli. This nicely demonstrates that many people rely too much on names, recommendations, superstition, gossip, dogmas, evil dictators, etc. without ever looking at the material directly.

[chopinsetude]

I wouldn't recommend learning the music from the Paderewski edition...lots of inaccurate dynamics, and he changes notes. The Dover edition is generally best, I've never had problems with any of their fingering, and they're very good quality.

Ouch, I consider the Paderewski edition to be the final word on Chopin.  The dynamics jive completely with recordings.

The phrasing on Mazurkas (see #45) are typically out of whack on most editions. I had to dig out my Paderewski to get the right feel.

In my experience, most professional pianists recommend the Paderewski for clinical textbook Chopin...