Need help with some basic trill exercises

[flyinfingers]

Could anyone please suggest some exercises (not too advanced) for some great trill work!  I would like to keep it not too complex at this point (just back into piano), but I would like to get started as to prevent these little buggers from hindering my playing.  Thanks!

[pianoplayjl]

I'm sorry to say but you should start off with hanon, and then move on to other exercises that may help you alot better. Basically Hanon is like a stepping stone to harder technical exercises. You might also find that if you do very slow practice and play the trills very hard then you might get a lighter touch and play abit more well. Just practice trills more often and you'll get it. I'm in the same hole as you.

[flyinfingers]

Okay.  Thx.  How do you practice trills currently?
After listening to those arpeggios, maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree, but I guess there's lots of trees in the forest!

[pianoplayjl]

I'm still in the early stages of mastering a trill. Yu need high finger-wrist action (which I'm still figuring how to do) and don't be very tense and press your fingers too hard against the keys because you might find you will tire more easily. RIght now I'm still doing hanon. Maybe do some Czerny, Dohnanyi, Brahms, etc. As you search deeper through the PS archives you will find that many people find it is useless and a waste of time. Good luck.

JL

[flyinfingers]

HA!  I went from crying on Opium's post to laughter on our miniscule stuff!  At this point, I can't even imagine mastering a 4-5 trill with either hand and it scares me!  That's what I'm saying.  My teacher says I have strong fingers -- after I handed her those Philipp exercises --I'm like, what!  Yeah, she says, "Oh, those are too hard and those are for people wanting to be concert pianists."  All the while I'm thinking, yes, I want to be a concert pianist in my own right -- but I said, "Yeah, well.. AND I SHOULD HAVE WALKED OUT AT THAT VERY INSTANT.  IT WAS AT THAT VERY INSTANT I KNEW THIS WASN'T THE TEACHER FOR ME!  CAN WE ALL AGREE ON THAT, AT LEAST?
There is so much work for me to do and she didn't want any part of it.   That's why I'm moving on.  I have a mission in life and it is to fulfill my own self-gratitude as a gifted pianist into my latter years and namely to prevent Alzheimer's.  Yes, that's true and I run nearly every day of the week, lift weights, etc.; with the hope that I can further prevent the monster.  My mom has it and it sucks!  Piano playing prevents Alzheimers!  Everyone play on forever!
    
Truth be known!  

[dss62467]

OK, this is the question I came on to ask, sort of, myself.   

I can trill well with my right hand but my left.... ugh.  When I see a trill in the left hand I start whining.  "left hand trills....really?"

So what was the final answer here?   I've got Hanon.   I just got assigned Schubert's Impromptu Opus 90 No. 3.   Left handed trills all over that!

[nyiregyhazi]

No doubt keyboardclass will soon be linking his trill exercise. The problem with trills is that, as the laboured execution on the film shows, trills are all about the most basic quality of movement- not what exercises you do. Few trill exercises do anything to change the most basic quality of movement. The art to the trill is to be able to move each finger in the right way individually- without it either sagging or getting crushed down by unwanted arm pressure. Anyone can learn to do a decent trill, but only by acquiring a specific style of movement. If that style of movement is not there, working on exercises frequently increases stiffness and makes things worse.

Incidentally, rotation (as is so often mentioned) can be absolutely useless unless it triggers the right style of finger movement. When the finger tries to only "support" a rocking (as is so frequently explained) it can often lead to major stiffness and sluggishness. I was held back for years by trying to rock between unmoving fingers.

[rmbarbosa]

The great problem with trills is the same problem with speed. When one wishes to play very fast, there`s a limit maximum for each one of us. Upper this limit, a "speed wall" becomes.
Fortunately, each one of us can reach an infinite speed without any dificulty: when we play 2 notes together: if you play together C and D, the time spent to go from C to D is = O. So, you have played tis two notes at infinite speed. Now, try to lift one of your 2 fingers only a little and let the 2 fingers fall over the keyboard. Doing so, you may listen C-D very very fast, dont you? This technique is named parallel sets. First you must play C-D together, at a fast speed, many times. Then, you lift one finger a little and play many times in that way. Ex: finger 2-finger 3; then you play 3-2 many times also. After this, you play 2-3-2 and then 3-2-3. Now you are playing like grace notes. Do repeat a lot. After this, 2-3-2-3 and 3-2-3-2, etc... and after some weeks, you are trilling.
There`s another important thing: trills are played also with wrist mouvements. If you play with your finger 2 curled and your finger 3 extended, letting them fall over the keyboard, your wrist moves as a lateral mouvement. The same if 3 is curled and 2 is extended. Doing this, you may balance your wrist very fast. After this, try to join both mouvements: lateral and 2-3-2-3....
Believe me, this works. C.C.Chang, in his book "fundamentals of piano practice" teaches this much better than I do... because he speaks English very well and much better than me 
<hope this may help you. Best wishes. Rui

[nyiregyhazi]

The great problem with trills is the same problem with speed. When one wishes to play very fast, there`s a limit maximum for each one of us. Upper this limit, a "speed wall" becomes.
Fortunately, each one of us can reach an infinite speed without any dificulty: when we play 2 notes together: if you play together C and D, the time spent to go from C to D is = O. So, you have played tis two notes at infinite speed. Now, try to lift one of your 2 fingers only a little and let the 2 fingers fall over the keyboard. Doing so, you may listen C-D very very fast, dont you? This technique is named parallel sets. First you must play C-D together, at a fast speed, many times. Then, you lift one finger a little and play many times in that way. Ex: finger 2-finger 3; then you play 3-2 many times also. After this, you play 2-3-2 and then 3-2-3. Now you are playing like grace notes. Do repeat a lot. After this, 2-3-2-3 and 3-2-3-2, etc... and after some weeks, you are trilling.
There`s another important thing: trills are played also with wrist mouvements. If you play with your finger 2 curled and your finger 3 extended, letting them fall over the keyboard, your wrist moves as a lateral mouvement. The same if 3 is curled and 2 is extended. Doing this, you may balance your wrist very fast. After this, try to join both mouvements: lateral and 2-3-2-3....
Believe me, this works. C.C.Chang, in his book "fundamentals of piano practice" teaches this much better than I do... because he speaks English very well and much better than me  
<hope this may help you. Best wishes. Rui

While I do like this approach, I must say that it's a classic case of something that helps expand upon a good basic fundamental movement, but which doesn't necessarily offer anything to those who have not got that most basic building block. I tried this kind of approach in the past, particularly for tremolos. If you have the right foundation in movement, this is an excellent way to practise maintaining it for increasingly long stretches. However, for those who try to force trills out with the arm, it typically just leads to a shorter burst of bad movement, that becomes progressively worse the further you build up. I tried a lot of these practise methods a few years ago, but I never found it any easier to play fast extended tremolos with comfort, until I learned how to align the fingers and move them in the right way. Only changing the basic movement ever stopped fatigue setting in.

[rmbarbosa]

Different experiences, I supose. I couldnt trill well untill I have  practice like I told in my anterior post. Now I can trill quite well.

[nyiregyhazi]

Different experiences, I supose. I couldnt trill well untill I have  practice like I told in my anterior post. Now I can trill quite well.

Yeah, I'm certainly not saying there's no use to this approach. It just depends what kind of movement you bring in, when using it.

[keyboardclass]

No doubt keyboardclass will soon be linking his trill exercise. The problem with trills is that, as the laboured execution on the film shows...

Jeez, talk about getting the boot in early!  'laboured execution'!?  You're off your head mate.  Still I suppose as they say - any publicity is good publicity.

Anyway, as it's helped many people:
Here's my trill exercise:

Here's the notes:



...and before anyone comments - I know the elbows are low.

[nyiregyhazi]

"Jeez, talk about getting the boot in early!  'laboured execution'!?  You're off your head mate.  Still I suppose as they say - any publicity is good publicity."

So rerecord it with trills that are excuted at the type of speed that would be expected in the context of a Beethoven sonata then- rather than at the speed at which Grade 1 pianists execute "trills". That would certainly show everyone how deluded I am. I've made my point and unless you'd like to offer such a demonstration there is nothing more that need be said.

[keyboardclass]

Oh Yes! Another thread about me!

[49410enrique]

hmm maybe Rakowski Etude No 4?

pics for ref attached.
edit. sorry i saw you said not advanced, the rakowski etudes are way way way hard. still i'll leave the reply up if anyone is interested in exploring them.

[keyboardclass]

Here's a bit of the one I based my exercise on.  It's by Cramer - you can get it at IMSLP, the Bulow edition:

[rmbarbosa]

 may be I`m wrong. But I do believe that this kind of exercises dont solve the main problem with trills: speed.
Everybody can play this exercises with a low speed. But if one increases speed, the speed wall inevitably appears, soon or late.
That`s why I insist in parallel sets.
There`s another important problem in trills: eveness. Leschetizky method purpose another kind of exercise: "it is a good plan to practise the trill in triplets, accenting the first note of each triplet... gradually faster and latter without accent". This kind of exercise looks for eveness but cant solve the problem of speed. However, if we play the two kinds of exercises (PS for speed and triplets for eveness), our problems may be solved.
Two other very important things: any tension is a no-no. And when beggining the trill, the 2ª note must be played firmly. Best wishes. Rui

[megadodd]

To trill is fairly easy. What you want to aim for, is ofcourse evenness in the trill.
You don't want the fingers to leave the keys, ever while trilling. You don't either want the key to go all the way up.
Relaxation, pressing down the key before it is all the way up, and 10 minutes / day. You will be good to go.