Help me decide please

[emma2516]

Hi, my children are 10 and 13 and learning piano. At the moment the only keyboard we have at home is an electronic one - it has weighted keys, but obviously is not sufficient for them long term. I play violin, but cannot play piano well enough to be a good judge.

I have found the following pianos and would welcome any advice and criticism. I have only been looking at uprights 48" and over. All the pianos are in the showrooms of reputable local dealers and come with tuning and warranty. 10 years for the new pianos and 1 year for the used pianos.

1) New Kawai K3 48" - $6100
I like the lower register but the top register is bright and the notes have a hard edge. I thought the top end was 1 dimensional - no complexity.

2) Used Yamaha U7 52" upright, about 30-40 years old - $6000
A somewhat heavier touch than the Kawai, nice mellow sound. I liked this piano but it is old, and the hammers are somewhat grooved, though not severely grooved.
Do you think the extra 4" is a good thing?

3) Used Yamaha U1 48", about 30 years old - $4500
A brighter sound than the U7 but still better than the Kawai. The hammers are a bit more grooved than the U7.

4) New Kohler and Campbell KC131 - $5000
I liked the sound of this one.

Many thanks for any help you can give me.

[keys60]

Its really hard for someone else to help you decide. Even if you played to of the same pianos bpy the same manufacturer, although similar, they would be different. Play more pianos until you are utterly exhausted and take notes. Really play them, for hours.
Extra 4" will make a difference in tone. Grooves in the hammers could be a could thing to a certain point. Slight grooves can compact a little and provide a played in sound. Deep grooves with rusty or greenish oxidized look in them means they are probably ready for a reshaping and can possibly sound bright and metallic.
6 grand sounds like a lot for a 30-40 year old Yamaha, and unless it has had fairly extensive work done, I would avoid it or offer 35% less. Other than that, U7 is a nice piano.
I haven't been shopping around much lately, but Kohler and Campbell is Young Chang (which have come back strong lately) and the few grands I've played were real crap. They've had some manufacturing problems in the past. Get what you pay for in some cases.
Why only the Asian built? How about some European or American pianos? Take your time, do it right and don't be afraid to offer much less. Piano dealers have the "A price" in which you pay list or too much, the "B price", 20-30% off, which is really a fair price and the "C price" selling to someone in the industry that really knows better and they don't mind turning a small profit and moving the beast out he door.  Seriously, if you pay list price, you've paid 30-40% too much.
Sorry for the ramble. Don't like salespeople much.
All the best.

[emma2516]

That is a really ineresting question, why I'm not considering an American or European piano. The answer is I haven't seen any! The dealerships here are crammed with grand pianos and carry only a few uprights. Used pianos in craigslist and the like, are mostly spinets.
I'm only looking at uprights because of space, and I'm only interested in full-size pianos.

Thanks very much for the feedback, especially the advice to negotiate.

I would love to hear some other thoughts. I have heard many conflicting things about K&C and am not sure what to believe.

[lhorwinkle]

Kawai K3 48" - $6100 - Since you don't like the tone, don't buy it.
 
Yamaha U7 52", 30-40 years old - $6000 - A piano this old might need restoration. Have a qualified technician make the judgement. If it needs restoration and it has not been done already, then skip this piano. It's way too old for this price.

Yamaha U1 48", 30 years old - $4500 - Possibly a good choice, but only a technician can evaluate it. It a bit old, and not worth that much money.

Kohler and Campbell KC131 - $5000 - I don't know anything about K&C pianos.

When considering a used piano ... if you're satisfied with it, get a technician to evaluate it. This is absolutely necessary for ANY used piano, no matter how old. It will be money well spent.

Also, remember that the dealer's asking price is just that ... an asking price. Expect to pay less. Make a low offer and proceed from there. But only after you've had a technician's evaluation.

[keys60]

Emma. The Chinese are coming on strong as of the last year or 2 with some good quality pianos. Even the Japanese names like Yamaha and Kawai are having pianos built in China and Indonesia. There is still some junk mixed in there. I'd look into the KandC because i did hear they (Samick and Young Chang in particular) are really stepping up their game, being the 2 largest manufacturers of Asian pianos. They've always been known to be the cheapies but are contenders in todays market. Pearl River (folks are still scoffing) is also a force to be reckoned with. Travel a bit if you must, but get out there and shop around. Those 2 used pianos are way over priced.
I personally have a Charles R. Walter. Although only 44" it is of high American built quality. Not the absolute best out there, but has a good tone, built like a Mack truck and a nice action.
What area are you from? Maybe I can help you search for a few more dealers.

Although I think the U7 may be a cooler piano when new for the asking price, it should be near the condition of the one in the following link.

https://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/ad.php?ad_id=14120

[pianoplayjl]

My brain tells if I'm in your predicament, I should go for the 3rd option. It's really hard to decide and it really comes down on your children's preferences. Maybe let them try the pianos first and see what they think. THey should consider the touch (whether it is light or heavy), dyanamic range and so on.
I would choose the 3rd option because personally I find that used pianos are a tiny bit easier to play than new pianos despite their freshness in everything. This applies specifically to Grand pianos. However this is jsut my opinion and good luck with your choosing of piano.

JL

[pbryld]

Why not try the private used piano market. For 6k you could get a really nice (grand) piano, especially if you are in the US.

[willvenables]

For what I know is available in the US... and possibly at around $6k (£3.8k) - you should be considering:

New Yamaha B3 (indonesia) - i think this is only available for European market...
New Yamaha T118 (china) -  I believe this is a U1 equivalent made in China for the US market.
They should both be better than the old Yamaha's you have shortlisted.

Remember - older pianos have lower value. They also need catching up servicing, refurbishment or rebuilding... the older the piano, the lower the value plus, the more work required. It is more cost effective to invest your money in a piano that is new - than paying an inflated price for an older piano that has, or even not had, a degree of work done at a higher cost/rate than an efficient piano factory can do. Most refurbs are not completely refurbed - they leave the expensive work alone. Brand new genuine Yamaha hammers and dampers, complete restring and completely re-centred action? I am yet to see one! Add to this the 'fact' that new Yamahas have a far better and more efficient design, so lower-priced new equivalents of the U1 must be considered.

Brodmann PE121 is a very nice upright. There should be some representation of Brodmann there. Made in China - and very well made too. Excellent design delivering a really rich, deep resonating bass. I am yet to encounter an upright of this size with such a strong, clear bass. Really wide dynamic range and a bell-like treble. Langer UK design action is lighter than the Yamaha (medium). Probably just outside your budget - but it is worth trying so you can value other pianos from this. Call it a reference point if you wish.

Kawai K3 is a decent piano - far better than an earlier Kawai - just like earlier Yamaha's.

It is all very subjective and you should really be considering a wide range of pianos and then buy the one you prefer.

I understand how the US market is so 'grand' equipped, but limited for uprights. It's the opposite over here.

[john90]

Yamaha seem to be making better and better pianos using ever cheaper materials and construction techniques. Until recently I have never liked Yamahas, as these and other cheap imports can have a shallow, hollow feel to them. However, the new Yamahas play really nicely, and don't feel like they need playing in. Not sure how well they will last, or if I would want to keep one very long term (25 years+). I would certainly consider renting one, it gets tuned, delivered, you get the very best years of its life if you pay a bit more and rent one from new...

For me, the touch and responsiveness of the keyboard is normally at least as important as the sound. This is where uprights usually loose, out, touch, over a baby grand which you don't have space for. But a massive 100year old German or American upright, bought privately for around $1000, that covers most of the wall, can make up for so much else, and you can totally get lost with the instrument, becoming one, sucked in by the richness, range and immense power. Many on here will recognise that feeling. I expect few will say they have felt this total enveloping feeing like that with a Japanese or Chinese upright. You can get this effect with their grands though.

My advice is to avoid the ones you have seen already and stick with digital. Learn to play something yourself on digital, slow with nice chords, perhaps a trilly bit in the right hand, and for the next couple of years look for an American or German piano that will cover most of your wall, that you yourself enjoy. This is what you are asking for, a tall piano with great sound. Japan or China are historically weak in this area, but instead good at making small, compact, reliable. Give your find a year to settle in to your house, regular tunings, and keep the kids playing on both. Hook the digital upto Midi and a PC, let your kids experiment with fancy sounds too. Don't worry though, the kids will soon realise the big piano can somehow do so much more sound wise than the PC!
  

[willvenables]

Yamaha seem to be making better and better pianos using ever cheaper materials and construction techniques. Until recently I have never liked Yamahas, as these and other cheap imports can have a shallow, hollow feel to them. However, the new Yamahas play really nicely, and don't feel like they need playing in. Not sure how well they will last, or if I would want to keep one very long term (25 years+).

The materials are not necessarily cheaper... The current Yamaha models that extend from the original series: uprights: U1-U3 and grands: C1-C7 - are actually made with higher grade materials than previously. The main reason for the characteristics and performance being substantially better than earlier models is the design. Scaling, bridge profile, soundboard profile and cabinet structure (strung back) have proven to be the most effective. By applying these design refinements to new lower-priced models for tighter budgets whilst using more basic cabinet styling and, in some cases, laminated soundboards, the advantage of mass production of  core structure and mechanics such as frame, keyboard and action - can be utilised at a lower cost on the entry-level models than if they were to manufacture lower-spec. components on a separate production line. Call it economies of scale. If anything, these instruments should last longer than earlier designs.

I would certainly consider renting one, it gets tuned, delivered, you get the very best years of its life if you pay a bit more and rent one from new...

I don't practise upselling beyond one's comfortable/affordable budget. It is wrong to believe that your customer has nothing else and no-one else to pay for in life... but it is right to make people aware of options and each instrument's benefits. If someone is considering renting a piano because it doesn't use capital... i would suggest considering low-rate finance or credit card - if affordable - on purchase. Pianos generally hold their value over a 10 year period. This is because good pianos should last a lifetime and new equivalent models typically cost more each year than the standard rate of inflation. So, if you rent a piano for 2 years and then decide to buy, you have paid out that rental cost and then have to pay 2 years inflation when buying new. I do see why people contract hire cars - as they are financing the initial depreciation and not the entire cost.

For me, the touch and responsiveness of the keyboard is normally at least as important as the sound. This is where uprights usually loose, out, touch, over a baby grand which you don't have space for. But a massive 100year old German or American upright, bought privately for around $1000, that covers most of the wall, can make up for so much else, and you can totally get lost with the instrument, becoming one, sucked in by the richness, range and immense power. Many on here will recognise that feeling. I expect few will say they have felt this total enveloping feeing like that with a Japanese or Chinese upright. You can get this effect with their grands though.

This is what you are asking for, a tall piano with great sound. Japan or China are historically weak in this area, but instead good at making small, compact, reliable.

 
Understood. Early Yamaha and Kawai pianos did not have a good reputation for bass. They were regarded as good workhorses and were consistent, reliable and neutral - at lower price than mediocre UK/EU pianos. Some of the low prices UK/EU pianos had more character in tone, but actions were poor, tone was inconsistent and each model varied hugely. Eventually, these pianos became overpriced for what they delivered. Yamaha, and later - Kawai, valued the European market more and incorporated design changes to deliver a more rich, deep tone and better bass. The Asian market seemed to be very happy with the neutral, attack, bright tone. Post 1999 Yamaha uprights from 121cm tall have a strong bass and the 131cm U3 from then onwards too, had a spacial tone that you can get lost in. The SU series handbuilt models SU118C (118cm - still made) and SU131S (131cm) were highly respected in the '90s as direct competitors to German uprights. I remember an SU131S having such a strong bass that I had to lock it's fall when it was next to a 7' grand... it was embarrassingly good. Yamaha replaced the SU131S with the SU7 around 2002. The bass is less impressive, but the tenor and treble have to be the most lyrical grand like i have ever heard from an upright.

[emma2516]

Thank you all for your advice. I have read it all, and am considering it all.

I live in Nashville, Tennesee, and have been visiting 3 dealers - Steinway, a Yamaha dealer and a Kawai dealer. There is also a dealer in second hand pianos, called Piano Rescue, or something like that. I have been wary of used pianos, and a brief foray into the Classified Ads a year back proved very disappointing. As a full-time working mother of two children (with an absorbing violin-playing habit of my own), I don't have a lot of time to drive 1 1/2 hrs round trip to look at a piano that turns out to be over-bright, or hasn't been tuned for a decade, so I can't judge the sound at all. Let alone, if I like it I have to find a technician and drive out again to get their opinion of it.

Hence I've only been going to the dealers, but I think they are sick of me turning up, playing some pianos in my very limited way (chromatic scales and a little Minuet in G), and going away again. Repeat every few months.

Since people here are advising me to widen my search, I checked the classifieds and Craigslist today and found only baby grands, no uprights. I'll continue to monitor.
I emailed Brodmann for info on local dealers today. We will see.

It really shouldn't be this hard. I am tempted to plump for the K&C. I wish I could know if it is regarded as a good piano. The K&C is at the Steinway dealer, which means full trade-in later if the children's progress warrants it.

I learned on a Strohmenger & Sons piano, and I suppose that is my reference sound and feel. I want a piano that sounds like a real warm solid piano, not a tinkly, bright piano.

Thanks again for your help.