Playing 2 piano pieces by yourself

[derschoenebahnhof]

I am learning a 2 piano piece by myself using a digital piano to play one part while I play the other (for info, "Clair de Lune" by Debussy transcribed by Henri Dutilleux). It's possible with a regular piano too, but harder because you cannot adjust playback speed easily (unless your recorder allows that without changing the pitch).

While I never had problems synchronizing 2 hands, having to synchronize 4 hands is another story...

I figured out a couple of things already:

- the part I am listening to while playing the other part needs to have equal or faster notes than the other part, so it works well if it has fast runs or scales while the part I am playing has chords. The other way around I find just too difficult, say listening to slow chords while playing fast runs and expecting them to be synchronized with the next coming chord.

- sometimes I have to swap the "Piano 1" and "Piano 2" parts so that it is easier to synchronize.

I still have trouble in the following scenario:

- a bunch of slow chords for an entire measure, then the next measure starts a new theme with fast runs. The part I am listening to starts the fast runs after the slow chords end, but I have a hard time knowing when the fast runs start (hope I am not being confusing here).

Wondering if anyone has insights on this :-) I am sure video would help, but it would be cumbersome to have my laptop standing there on top of the piano and I couldn't use the digital piano for playback then. I could also insert some note right before the fast runs start, to help me synchronize. That extra note could later be removed by editing the MIDI file. Hmm.

Either way, it will keep me busy for a while, and the piece is gorgeous 

[quantum]

Your post is a bit confusing.  Many of the things you describe are too ambiguous.  Can you restate the question using well defined terms such as "piano 1, RH, bar 52, E major run, starting in the second half of beat 3".  It would also be helpful for you to clearly outline your question.  

[derschoenebahnhof]

Fair enough, I will do that in a while. With bar number, hand etc. it will be clearer.

CG

[derschoenebahnhof]

Ok, I attached a segment of the sheet music...



To simplify, my question is, how to smoothly synchronize the transition from the chords in the first measure to the second measure?

Assuming from top to bottom you have piano 1 and piano 2, and I am recording piano 2, replaying it, and playing along piano 1. The tricky part is how to synchronize the AFH chord played by piano 1 on measure 2, while the left hand of piano 2 starts fast 1/16 runs with the D.

CG

[quantum]

Two pianists would normally be in constant communication with each other.  However, recording both of the parts yourself does present some additional challenges.  Even more so that this style of music employs much rubato, and isn't exactly suited to a tick track.  

My suggestion would be to record the part with the shortest note values first, followed by the other part.  It may be counter intuitive musically as you would naturally wish the thematic or melodic part to lead.  However, it is much more facilitative to multitrack slower note values over faster ones, as opposed to the opposite.  

This most likely means switching back and forth between either Piano 1 or Piano 2 to first record the faster bits.  Following that you would layer the remaining parts over the previous.  This does mean you will be recording in a non-linear fashion and splicing the cuts together in the editing process. 

As in the case of your example, the thematic material appears as longer note values then the accompanying parts.  Since you would be recording the accompanying parts (faster moving) first, it would help to visualize mentally how you would like to shape the expression of the theme in anticipation of recording it.  

[derschoenebahnhof]

Quantum, you read my mind, but you wrote it much more precisely. Indeed, this is what I was thinking too, record the shortest note values first and play along with slower ones. In the case of Clair de Lune for 2 pianos, this means recording piano 2 most of the time, but sometimes switching to piano 1 and back to piano 2. So that may give less control for the melody to lead timing wise, but is the way to go.

Two pianists can do head movements and other gestures to keep in sync. They can even do micro adjustments as they play, and one or the other pianist can lead as the other follows.

The other difficult part is the transitions, for example a sequence of chords, all in rubato, followed in the next measure by faster runs. I had in mind inserting a tiny note right before the new measure as a help to synchronize. I tried that in the case of that section and it really helps.

An interesting thing is the use of the pedal on my digital piano. It seems that the pedal gets recorded for each part independently (recorded songs can have "left" and "right" parts), and at playback it almost behaves like I have two pianos. I can play along with the pedal, and the pedal only applies to what I am playing, not to what the digital piano plays back. Damper resonance on the other hand applies to everything that is being played.

Hopefully, Clair de Lune is that not challenging technically so that I can concentrate on synchronization and musicality (which is my weak point so far).

[quantum]

Regarding transitions: When doing splices it is very important to start playing the take a little bit before the intended start and to continue a little bit after the intended stop.  Perhaps it is good to borrow the term "bleed" from the print industry.  For example if you intended to record bars 10-20 in a take, you would perhaps play bars 8-22.  This bleed is extremely helpful in putting your takes into context.  In cases for which you need to splice between contrasting sections or if you splice at a fermata the bleed will allow you to have a sense of where the transitions lie during the editing process.  It is very difficult to judge musical time for non-active moments such as held notes or rests during editing.  

Also be very aware of the acoustical properties of the space you are recording, whether it be real-time or virtually inserted.  You need to factor in reverb time and qualities when you are making splices.  Acoustics that are livelier would require a larger bleed on both ends of the take.  

Regarding your pedal:  The way you describe it is similar to what would occur with two acoustic pianos in a hall. You would only expect the pedal of the piano you are playing to modify its tone, and not the pedal of the other piano.  However, the resonance of either piano is heard throughout the hall and may affect any other object in that hall.  

Are you recording audio or MIDI?  If the latter you probably should make sure you are not accidentally modifying the playback track and that it is disarmed in the recording software.  MIDI allows you to modify events independently of each other.  You could rewrite the pedal controller events independently of the notes.  You just have to make sure you don't do so unintentionally.  

[derschoenebahnhof]

Transitions: absolutely, it makes sense to start earlier than the intended section and stop a few bars after the end. I also do that when practicing, start a few bars earlier and end a few bars past the end of the section. Eventually I need a single take recording of Piano 2 (with video), and then one or more recordings listening to Piano 2 and playing Piano 1 along (with video).

My plan is to let the Digital Piano record for me on 2 tracks and then replay the MIDI file with virtual piano software. After that, put 2 videos side by side and sync the videos with the audio. Recording the speakers of the digital pianos wouldn't make sense to me since virtual piano software gets much better sound in my opinion. And I'd probably get better sound with software than with my wife's clunky Russian upright 

I am new to the whole MIDI thing, I have yet to buy a MIDI to USB adapter. For now I can use a USB drive to transfer MIDI files between the piano and the PC. I am not sure how the virtual piano software will handle the pedal. Will it merge the pedal events from both tracks, or handle them like there are 2 pianos? I will find out.

[quantum]

If you are going the virtual sampled piano route, I would suggest recording your performance using the virtual piano software.  Recording using one piano sample set and substituting it later on with another is probably not the best way to go about it.  Piano samples, just like acoustic pianos have different acoustical properties.  You want to be in control of the acoustical characteristics of the piano samples as you play.  This will give you far greater control over expression.  Substituting a sample set in editing may introduce some acoustic and musical-interpretative anomalies due to the differences between samples. 

Adding video to this non-linear recording project adds another level of complexity.  Are you using an editing suite to put this all together.

You don't have to record your digital pianos speakers.  You can do a direct line in recording if you want your DP's sound. 

[derschoenebahnhof]

You don't have to record your digital pianos speakers.  You can do a direct line in recording if you want your DP's sound. 

Indeed, connect recorder to head phone outlet (no line out on my DP). My brain is already not working properly and it's only Thursday. Ooops. 

If you are going the virtual sampled piano route, I would suggest recording your performance using the virtual piano software.  Recording using one piano sample set and substituting it later on with another is probably not the best way to go about it.  Piano samples, just like acoustic pianos have different acoustical properties.  You want to be in control of the acoustical characteristics of the piano samples as you play.  This will give you far greater control over expression.  Substituting a sample set in editing may introduce some acoustic and musical-interpretative anomalies due to the differences between samples.

Good point about using the virtual piano, though I may want to start with the digital piano first for practice. I need to figure out why the demo version of PianoTeq (which is missing some notes, fine) does some weird periodic clicks when playing a MIDI file on my laptop (a reasonably decent machine). When converting to WAV though, this does not occur, and it is faster than real time. Hmm.

Adding video to this non-linear recording project adds another level of complexity.  Are you using an editing suite to put this all together.

Well, I expect to record everything in one take. That is, I don't want to record multiple segments and put them back together. For video, yeah, I have Cyberlink Power Director and I already did a trial montage using an upright. It wasn't an issue putting both videos side by side and I was able to control where the videos start, frame by frame.

Did I forget to say that you guys on this forum rock? Actually, play piano, but you get my point :-)

[quantum]

I need to figure out why the demo version of PianoTeq (which is missing some notes, fine) does some weird periodic clicks when playing a MIDI file on my laptop (a reasonably decent machine). When converting to WAV though, this does not occur, and it is faster than real time. Hmm.

My first inclination would be to look at sound card drivers.  Make sure you are running the latest versions. Following that, check to see if there is a latency buffer adjustment.  Play around with the setting to see if clicks go away.  You may have more than one sound driver on your system, try to use a low latency one like ASIO if available.  If you are still having clicking problems check sound card documentation to see that you are not using any incompatible hardware on your system.


Pianostreet does Rach 

[derschoenebahnhof]

Yes, ASIO drivers had to be installed. With DirectSound, I am getting clicks... with ASIO, it's perfect.

Now I need a MIDI cable 

[derschoenebahnhof]

Ok, here is my shameless first try...

Recorded on the digital piano, then replayed the MIDI files for each piano part separately with PianoTeq 3.6. Merged the 2 pianos with Audacity, reduced the level of piano 2 a bit to emphasize piano 1 with the melody. Piano 2 is the C3 Solo Recording Variant 1, and Piano 1 is C3 Solo Recording.

I still have synchronization issues, especially with chords that are spaced far apart... anyway, work in progress.

I tried to record directly with PianoTeq and ran into issues with missed notes (might be the MIDI cable or the drivers) and also ran into the problem of how to replay one part while PianoTeq replays the other. Since ASIO doesn't allow mixing, and DirectSound has way too much latency, I tried "analog" mixing, but using the earbuds from my IPhone and putting headphones (from laptop with PianoTeq) on top of them  . It works but because of the aforementioned missed notes, I didn't pursue that route. I need to figure out the MIDI glitches.

Best,
CG

[derschoenebahnhof]

Quick question, if anyone has experience with MIDI editors...

I want to insert notes into a MIDI file, but without shifting the notes after the insertion point. Wikipedia lists a whole bunch of MIDI software, which one would be best for this?

Thanks,
CG