Revolutionary etude please advise!

[cook675]

Hello i think this may be my first post, so ill give some BG.  Firts heard Rev. Etude when i was 18, it shook me to my core and is the reason i started playingpiano.  Im now 27.  I attemped it 3 months after i started and suffice to say gave up soon after i realized it wasnt going to happen

Taught myself how to play, 3 years later hit a wall, took lessons for the first time, for jazz which is mostly what i play.  The only classicsl pieces i know are pathet. Sonata 8 2nd mvmt, 2 bach 2 pt inventions, couple WTC's, and his french suite 5 in G the gigue, and about the first 4-8 measures of around 20 random pieces.  Classical repetoire aside i know how to get around the keys, i have studied and played jazz extensively, transcribed and learned dozens of solos, learned all scales/modes 2 hands up and down.  Big deal, i know....

I need some help.  My teacher way back when (anyone know Pat Pace?) told me my technique was horrible.  Well, no one tought me what right techniqu was.  I didnt really care and neither did he, he said it would be to hard to change what ive already done. He said my wrists were really tight and that i could never play fast.  He told me if i felt tension to stop, relax, then continue.  I blew this off since i was young, nieve, it slowed my learning, and i was having so much fun.  Also my wrists have never hurt to this day.

Present day: started rev. Etude 3 days ago feeling theres a good chance with craploads of work and discipline i can play it.  I cant sight read for jack (unless they're lead sheets) so i just go measure by meas.  section by section memorizing.  Im having trouble with the RH in 2nd measure.  Switching from the 16th note octave G's to the 4 note chord right after.  I practiced only these 2 measures for 2 hours today over and over to get the chang super quick and fluid.

1) Does anyone use the pedal to facilitate this?  At trmpo it seems it would be hard to only pedsl that quick part

2) any 1 measure i practice for 2 hrs i should have down cold. Its better, however i still flub the last chord occasionly.  Since im switching so fast sometimes my hand is in slight the wrong place, or i nip a note next to my 2nd and 3 fingers.  Or the high D doesnt get depressed with the same force ad the other notes.  I see videos of people and the transition is efforyless, and they even take thier hands away from the keys between these 2 quick chords.  HOW?  And please dont say practice, i tried it for 2 hours and cnt get it fluid or crisp.  Also after this practice, my RH wrist bothered me mildly,  leading me to think its a technique thing i dont have or know about

3) the downward runs are very easy to me and dont bother my wrists, and im confident i can work those up to speed.  However, i worked on the LH arpeggios in the first 2 measures of the 2nd section, and my left wrist was aching slightly after some time. 


So...... How do the wrist issues get resolved, what do i do for technique for the RH chords and for my wrists?

Sorry for the rant, i dont have a teacher so i have no ine to ask about this.  Please do not say 'try an easier piece first work your way up'.  No, i won't.  This is what im going to learn.  Ive waited 9 years till i felt i may be able to play it.  If you tell me theres no way i can learn it until i alter my technique, then please tell me how; this is what im most afraid of, something with my technique getting in the way of me learning the piece that moved me to learn piano.  I really appreciate your help and comments, thank you.

[danhuyle]

Play scales and arpeggios that are used in Chopin Etude Op10/12.

Most people play this at 112 per crotchet.

Surprisingly, Etude Op10/12 is easy to play fast compared to the other Chopin etudes. The focus should be on the interpretation and you must decide on how you're going to shape each phrase.

I practiced this with no pedal in order to get all the notes even and then added it in later on. Also, try to shape as much as you can without pedal.

What's the main difficulty you're having with this etude?

[megadodd]

The Revolutionary etude of Chopin has been described as one of the greatest dramatic outburst in the litterature of music, I get you. Don't give up on this one.

As of the chord in measure 2, Don't get stuck up on it. Leave it as it is and get back to it when you are supposed to fix everything. Get the basics of the piece down at first. (Don't ignore the dotted rythm)

When striking the chords, try aiming for the floor underneath the keys, making the tone sound just as dramatic as it can get, also- voice the higest note of the chord.

Even though, speed of the left hand isn't a problem of yours. It dosn't take priority for now, only a few days into the practice. Clarity and eveness should be the ones prior to your routine.
I would accent the first note of each beat during practice, but that's just a personal opinion, it helps me someway.

The runs in the 2nd section follows a pattern, which repeats later on. This is a very beautiful part with alot of dynamics to incorporate once you got the notes down. Instead of just playing it, play as the score says with the crescendo diminuendo and so on, this way it's not so dull.
For the wrist problem, you should practice it, slowly, real slow. Make note of every tention in your body and when it's caused. It might be your right shoulder that causes the tension in the left wrist.

Basically, this piece requires you to make up good fingering, what suits your hand.
So I would spend alot of time with that, just making sure this fingering will NOT give me problems later on in any aspect.

[cook675]

Hi thanks much for the replies and the advice.  My main problem right now is jumping from the octave G's in the right hand the last 16th note of the second measure to the first chord of the next measure.  the transition is so fast, even at a resonable tempo.  It's not definitive and confident when I play it because maybe 20-30% of the time I'll still hit a wrong note, or budge a note with one of my sprwaled fingers, despite practicing only this transition for a very long time. 

I'll keep working on it, and if its still not really happening after a couple weeks I'll let you know. 

Also out of curiosity, do you play that RH octave G chord with 1-4 or 1-5 fingering, and do you think that would have any effect on how quickly you can get to the next chord?

[megadodd]

I'm well aware of that certain things buggs certain pianists. As for you measure 2 is a problem now, while as for me. I don't find it difficult at all, while your left hand runs are possibly easier than it is for me.
I don't see why this is a problem for you so I'm not sure of how to help you. But I play the octave with 1 and 5.
I go with the mindset, that if you are having problem with a small thing such as this, repeat it RH thn LH then hands together alot of times, if this dosn't help, I havn't repeated it enough.
In similar cases, I try and do the 4-3-2-1 excercise.
It means, you play each and EVERY note 4 times in mf in a bar, then you do it 3 times, then 2 and finally one. This will really drill your muscle memory.
I like to have a piece of paper and a pen when I practice. When I did the bar in 4-3-2-1, one time. I draw a small character or something, then do it again- untill I have 10 characters on the paper, this means I did every note 100 times (If left hand first then right hand then hands together I did them 200 times). This might take 5-20 minutes depending on the difficulty.

If this dosn't work, come back the next day and do the same.
Keep in mind though, a very important thing. You waited 9 years to play this piece. As long as your not planning a recital in the next month or so, you have no rush.
As I said earlier, perhaps not clearly enough. This particular problem, don't let it bugg you. Come back to it later, when you feel like it. To not make a bad habbit.

[starstruck5]

This tutorial may help you.

Also if you need to better you technique where you leap up from an octave to a chord - why not write your own little study using this idea? That way it will eventually become second nature to you.

[cook675]

Yes I saw that video it's great.

Ok, here's another question which may sound ridiculous, but you mention chord 'jumping' and in the video also it looks like his hand(arm+hand) jumps to that last chord.  What I've been doing is not that.  I have been practicing trying to very quickly 'slide' my hand into position for that third chord.
I don't really know if these are just one in the same, or they are distinctly different for technical reasons?

Sorry for all the weird minute technical questions but I'm curious and have no one to ask, and no way to find out other than asking you consumate professionals. 

Thanks!

 

[cook675]

Ha!  Please ignore my last post.  I got it, it works now.  The chords are coming together.  I'll repost again when I break my wrist for more advice.  Thanks

[lelle]

Ha!  Please ignore my last post.  I got it, it works now.  The chords are coming together.  I'll repost again when I break my wrist for more advice.  Thanks

It's better if you ask for advice before you break your wrist so that you know how to prevent it! Piano injuries can be terrible

[megadodd]

The hands are your proffession after all, tr0 dat.

[ajspiano]

Consider these ideas -

You get better at what you practice in that the processes that are repeated become part of your muscle memory and you execute them by default.

If you do not attempt to find the right technique, or have someone show you the right technique its exceedingly unlikely that you will use the right technique because there are far to many variables involved in piano technique.

When you practice bad technique it is often 'enough' for easier music, but when you face harder more complex music you may 'hit the wall' - so to speak.

Sometimes when you practice bad technique over and over you eventually fluke stumble onto good technique and are able to play the passage better. You likely interpret this as gradual improvement due to practice over an extended period of time.

If you were able to find "good technique" before you started practicing a passage for hours and hours, you could learn more difficult music much faster because you wouldnt have to go through the lengthy and indefinite process of "hoping to fluke" the right technique, you could just practice the good stuff initially.

....

read this - https://www.pianofundamentals.com/book/en/chapter_1 - more specifically, the passages on chord attack and paralel sets. The ideas of the exercises presented here is to allow you to find the right motions as quickly as possible, so that you can get to practicing them immediately.

For more ideas on how to move, you can read up in a lot of places. both Fink and Sandor's books are mentioned in the above link I think. Read everything with a grain of salt since its easy to misinterpret.. Experiment and make up your own mind about what moves work best for you, but try to do so with an open mind to all the possibilities for how you can move.

Getting the technique right for the rev. is going to be so important, you want playing the notes to be easy and without strain because your going to be so consumed by the passion of the music, and since you obviously love the piece, if you can't focus on the passion it'll frustrate you a whole lot aswell..

best of luck