Rach Op 23 No 5 = wrist pain, specific suggestions anyone?

[_achilles_]

This is a fun song, and that being the case I probably get carried away when practicing and bang a little too hard. I've been reading a lot and pain seems to be always linked to bad technique, which I admit I probably have to some degree. The pain is in my left wrist mostly on the left side of the wrist when looking at it from above.

So, my advice to myself so far based of my reading:
-Lots of relaxation, I should never be straining which I know I do once I get to the second page
-Check posture, I've never had a teacher tell me how to be sitting so I'm going to try adjusting that
-Don't play too fast
-Not playing it on my overly weighted digital <- makes practice slightly more complicated

I have a question about how to play the "triplets" (not actually triplets, just groups of 3 chords that run throughout the entire song - minus the middle part). For example, the song starts on a G, then plays a chord three time, that group is what I'm wondering about. Should those be played mostly from the wrist and arm? My teacher told me I should have more "bounce" but I'm not sure if I'm doing it right.

[nyiregyhazi]

I have a question about how to play the "triplets" (not actually triplets, just groups of 3 chords that run throughout the entire song - minus the middle part). For example, the song starts on a G, then plays a chord three time, that group is what I'm wondering about. Should those be played mostly from the wrist and arm? My teacher told me I should have more "bounce" but I'm not sure if I'm doing it right.

If you're having wrist pains, you probably aren't using your fingers enough. I'd forget the idea of sourcing energy "from" either the wrist or the arm altogether. Practise tapping out the three chords on a tabletop, while lifting the wrist- so the arm cannot press. The fingers should be able to flick out the repetitions very clearly, without a trace of action or downward pressure "from" either the wrist or the arm. I'd keep the same sense of lifting while playing them at the piano, until you're certain that you're fingers are getting suitably involved.

[werq34ac]

Bounce is exactly the word for it. Personally, i would not use the arm. The arm is for big and loud and sonorous chords that you cannot achieve the sound with only the fingers and wrist. However, I don't think the piece calls for that.

If you are banging, you might be focusing too much on the motion of going down into the keys. This will probably strangle the sound and thats pretty much how you get bangy. Instead of focusing on the motion of pressing the keys, focus more on coming up. Gravity should take care of the rest.

Start slow and think up.

[scott13]

NO the arm is exactly what you should be using, but I would wager you are thinking of each chord in the group of 3 as needing its own up and down movement.

Instead, try thinking of the 3 chords, as one movement, with a slight accent on the last chord, and use a very subtle and relaxed writs, and allow the weight of your arm to bounce through the chords. That way you are playing virtually tension free and your tone will be much nicer than in you use only the fingers.

If you watch good pianists play this, you will see the chords played from the shoulders, utilizing the entire arm. Playing with the fingers only is a stupid idea.

[nyiregyhazi]

NO the arm is exactly what you should be using, but I would wager you are thinking of each chord in the group of 3 as needing its own up and down movement.

Instead, try thinking of the 3 chords, as one movement, with a slight accent on the last chord, and use a very subtle and relaxed writs, and allow the weight of your arm to bounce through the chords. That way you are playing virtually tension free and your tone will be much nicer than in you use only the fingers.

The two points about the arm are basically the same. The point about not using the arm is that it should not be trying to provide energy through a lifeless hand. To turn it into one movement, it's necessary to get a slight upward movement from the wrist- which STOPS the arm pressing energy downward and forces the fingers to engage. The end product can feel like bouncing, but to take this literally is very slow and sluggish- unless the hand causes the bouncing. Bouncing at speed would still involve an upward arm movement and plenty of hand actions- as gravity alone is too slow and does not provide enough energy beyond the first drop. An arm bounce would make the first chord accented and the following ones weaker- unless the fingers are controlling the dynamic. There would be more energy falling at the start- just the same as when you drop a rubber ball. The first bounce is the highest and from then on there's less and less energy.

I know that the bouncing metaphor works for some, but personally I had no success from it whatsoever.  I took it literally and it made me very slow and stiff, until my hand started to become the energy provider. These days, it's possible to play things like the repeated octaves in the Liszt 6th rhapsody with a sense of spring and bounce- but virtually all of the actions stem from the hand. The arm just bounces in response. Its key role is simply to ensure that it does not burden the hand with unnecessary pressure.

[werq34ac]

NO the arm is exactly what you should be using, but I would wager you are thinking of each chord in the group of 3 as needing its own up and down movement.

Instead, try thinking of the 3 chords, as one movement, with a slight accent on the last chord, and use a very subtle and relaxed writs, and allow the weight of your arm to bounce through the chords. That way you are playing virtually tension free and your tone will be much nicer than in you use only the fingers.

If you watch good pianists play this, you will see the chords played from the shoulders, utilizing the entire arm. Playing with the fingers only is a stupid idea.

I would NOT accent the last chord. You will probably lose control over what notes you do accent when the music calls for it.
Fast chords/octaves played in succession SHOULD NOT be played from the shoulder. I mean imagine shrugging your shoulders very quickly repeatedly. It's not a very controlled movement and easily causes tension.

And even when playing very loud chords, shoulders seems like a ridiculous movement and will probably tense you up. Leaning forward is much more efficient, creates a better quality of sound, and won't tense you up.

Personally, I think that the "bounce" technique is all in the wrist while the fingers simply aim which keys are to be played. It's kinda like dribbling a basketball very quickly. You push the ball down with just enough force to maintain the same amount of energy.

[nyiregyhazi]

Personally, I think that the "bounce" technique is all in the wrist while the fingers simply aim which keys are to be played. It's kinda like dribbling a basketball very quickly. You push the ball down with just enough force to maintain the same amount of energy.

I'm convinced this is an illusion, myself. Hold your forearm with one hand and try to move the hand up and down as fast as possible. It really won't be quick. It's extremely hard to change direction fast enough to simulate three rapid chords. I'm not saying the wrist would not actively contribute anything, but moving from the wrist through braced fingers is not a naturally fast movement. The fingers need to provide at least something, for any real bounce.

[_achilles_]

Thanks for all the helpful input. I've been incorporating it into my practice and I my wrists have not been hurting much since then. I also feel like I can play the music faster and more musically now. Now I just need to fine tune my pedaling and I'll be ready to start working on the middle parts with HT.

My opinion on the "bounce" is probably closer to nyiregyhazi's. I feel like the sort of bounce I do get is a result of playing it with my fingers, but it's very subtle.

[werq34ac]

I'm convinced this is an illusion, myself. Hold your forearm with one hand and try to move the hand up and down as fast as possible. It really won't be quick. It's extremely hard to change direction fast enough to simulate three rapid chords. I'm not saying the wrist would not actively contribute anything, but moving from the wrist through braced fingers is not a naturally fast movement. The fingers need to provide at least something, for any real bounce.

Ah that makes more sense. I'm not exactly sure how my hand is working for this technique, but after close inspection it seems that my fingers are doing more than just aiming. Yes indeed it was just an illusion. Though I disagree completely with using shoulders as someone else said.