From Impromptu op 90 no 3 to Revolutionary Etude

[beebert]

Hello everyone! The hardest piece that I can play at the moment is the Impromptu op 90 no 3 by Franz Schubert. I wonder, as they say this is a grade 8 piece, how many years of hard work away from being able to play a piece like the Revolutionary Etude by Chopin would you say that I am if I practice for about 6-8 hours every day?

[49410enrique]

you'll have to practice 24.01 hours per day

[beebert]

No but seriously I have a goal to be able to play it within two years. Is it realistic you think?

[punkpianist360]

No but seriously I have a goal to be able to play it within two years. Is it realistic you think?

Yes, it is.   

[beebert]

How about the ballade op 23 no 1?

[birba]

Why?  Is there an op. 23 no. 2?    Only teasing you.  That's a mighty big jump from the schubert impromptu.  There's a lot to do before you get there.  But there's no harm in playing around with it.  Just don't waste a lot of time.  you've got to get there gradually!

[beebert]

Well what piece would be suitable for me to do right now? The hardest pieces I play are Impromptu no 3, Sonata D 959 2nd mvt, moment musical no 4...

[49410enrique]

beebert, agreed with above, i think you'll just intuitively know when you're ready for those works, tough again it is something to be discussed with your instructor (if you are studying with someone), if they deem it a realistic challenge then discuss it with your teacher.

in the meantime, i would explore more schubert since you were inquiring about them, perhaps this?
this little number is very approachable and among my favorite of the impromptus (im partial this was part of a recital i did and though 'technically' one of the easier works i put on stage that day, it was probably the most musically effective of the pieces  , i know all were great but audience feedback really seemed to point to many being moved by this).

Schubert Imprompt A flat major Op 142 No 2

[beebert]

I know that piece is great! I play it already though, god I love Schubert! Is there any other pieces you know that are about the same difficulty standard as Moment musical no 4 and Impromptu no 3? I would love some Schubert, Chopin or Beethoven!

[pianowolfi]

beebert, how about actually and really taking an exam in the near future? Perhaps grade 5 or 6? So you will get a sort of feedback. If it's way too easy for you, you can always take more difficult exams afterwards, until you feel really challenged  

[beebert]

Looking at the pieces at grade 5 - 6 they seem too easy, don't know what grade, maybe 7 or 8.. but no I just want a new piece at 7-8 standard!

[mcdiddy1]

It is hard to know what your skill level or experience level is by mention you played Impromptu. There is no way to know if you just "get through the piece" or if you play it flawlessly and with artistry. What makes more of a difference is how efficient your practice is which translates to you learning piece very quickly. Nobody know how quickly you learn pieces, piano experience, musical experience, and technique level which I believe play a big part in you learning the piece. If your skill is high in all of those aspects then mastering the etude will not be that challenging.

I also have a personal bias that piano grade levels are very subjective.  One persons grade 4 is someone's grade 5 or 6. I think depth and breath is better than just aiming for a very challenging piece. By that I mean it is better to learn 5 or 6 piece with the same level of difficulty rather than struggling for months trying to play one of high difficulty. The faster and more effient you get in your practice the better prepared you will be to tackle more challenging works in the future.

[beebert]

I play the impromptu flawless pretty much, after about 2 weeks work on it. Same with the andantino d. 959 and moment musical no 4. Maybe the moment musical is even more difficult then the impromptu?

[pytheamateur]

Hello everyone! The hardest piece that I can play at the moment is the Impromptu op 90 no 3 by Franz Schubert. I wonder, as they say this is a grade 8 piece, how many years of hard work away from being able to play a piece like the Revolutionary Etude by Chopin would you say that I am if I practice for about 6-8 hours every day?

I thought the Impromptu is a DipAbrsm and ATCL piece. 

[beebert]

Well it is, because of the difficulty of bringning out the melody(like a difficult moonlight sonata 1st mvt). But still in my opinion nowhere near the revolutionary. Though, how about moment musical no 4? Is it grade 8 or 7?

[punkpianist360]

Justin Beebert, you are jumping the gun from Impromptu to Chopin Ballade. 

[beebert]

what? tell me the grade on moment musical no 4...

[punkpianist360]

what? tell me the grade on moment musical no 4...

Stop thinking in levels, man, everything is relative.  Though, it is necessary to develop a foundation in Chopin, first.  Just learn the Revolutionary Etude first.  From experience, being too ambitious will get you into a bunch of dipsh*t.

[mcdiddy1]

Stop thinking in levels, man, everything is relative.  Though, it is necessary to develop a foundation in Chopin, first.  Just learn the Revolutionary Etude first.  From experience, being too ambitious will get you into a bunch of dipsh*t.

lol wow. Thats one way of putting it.

[punkpianist360]

lol wow. Thats one way of putting it.

Yo Diddy, gettin' 'em hoes?  All day all night?

[mcdiddy1]

Yo Diddy, gettin' 'em hoes?  All day all night?

Lol

[worov]

Have you ever played some Chopin ? Starting your Chopin experience with a etude can be rough. What are your technique foundations besides Schubert ? Have you played Bach ? Scarlatti ? Beethoven ? Have an experience in romantic music besides Schubert ? Mendelssohn ? Schumann ? Grieg ?

I advise not to play the etude right now. Chopin preludes (Opus 28) can serve as a preparation for the etudes. And no 3 is particularly useful if you intend to learn Opus 10 no 12. The left hand has a similar pattern in both pieces, but the prelude is easier.

Listen to it :

Good luck !

[beebert]

Well, let me tell you my repertoire:

Schubert:
Impromptu op 90 no 3,4
Moments Musicaux op 94 no 2,3,4
Sonata D 664 Andante 2nd mvt
Sonata D 959 Andantino 2nd mvt

Beethoven:
Sonata op  49 no 1 and 2
Moonlight Sonata 1st and 2nd mvt
Pathetique 2nd and 3rd mvt

Bach:
Invention 1,8,14
Goldberg Variations Aria
A couple of the little preludes

Chopin:
Prelude op 28 no 4,6,7,9,15,20
Nocturne op 9 no 2, op posth. no 20
Mazurka op 67 no 2

Debussy:
Clair de Lune
Children's corner: Dr Gradus ad Parnassum, The little shepherd
Valse Romantique

Schumann:
Traumerei

Mozart:
Sonata k 545 all three mvts
Sonata k 331 all three mvts
Sonata k 311 3rd mvt
Fantasia k 397


and some other pieces I cannot come up with right now and has no major importance.

[worov]

Now, we're talking !

So you do have some good repertoire basis. An excellent repertoire (I have the same : that's why it is good )

It's good that you played some Bach (my favourite composer). It's a very good technique foundation and beautiful music. It refreshes the spirit. Good for the mind. Try the play some of the WTC, it will strengthen your fingers and hand independance, you will need for the Chopin etudes.

Scarlatti's sonatas are excellent for technique too.

Debussy is very good for working on color and tone. You can use this Chopin too.

Chopin's Etude is hard technically, that's obvious. But we must not forget that it's also a piece of music. When you'll play it, you will have to make music with it, so that people listening will moved by the sound of it.

So, how to work on musicality ? Well, Chopin is a romantic. you have to work on romantic repertoire for this.

You can expand your romantic repertoire. T play a Chopin piece, nothing prepares you better than Chopin pieces. But you already have some of these. You can play some other pieces by him, but also some other composers.

Mendelssohn's Songs without words are wonderful pieces. They are very short and intermediate. Definitely in your reach.

So are Grieg's Lyric pieces. He wrote 66 of them. Very intimate piano music. Above the same level as Mendelssohn.

You have one piece by Schumann. There is a lot of piano music by him. Check out the rest of the Kinderszenen. All of it is in your capacities. Check out also Album für die Jugend. These are real gems.

After seeing your repertoire, I can say that prelude (opus 28 no 3, the one I mentionned above in my earlier post) is definitely in your range. My favourite recording are Arrau (Philips), Argerich (DG) and Pogorelich (DG). If you enjoy it, I suggest that you work on it. I t would be a fantastic preparation for the etude.

Remember that Chopin's favourites composers were Scarlatti, Bach and Mozart. He used their pieces to teach his students and to prepare them to play his own pieces. Playing the pieces of these composers can be a help to master Chopin's compositions.

Finally, don't you have a teacher ? He could be a great help and should be the one answering your questions.

This should get you started.

Good luck and have fun !

[worov]

Another piece which can serve as a preparation for Opus 10 no 12 : Mendelssohn's Song without words, Opus 53 no 3 :

It has a very fast arppegio figuration in the left and some powerful melody chords in the right hand. Same as Opus 10 no 12.

[bacchus1224]

This is funny because I've played the Revolutionary before but now I'm learning the Schubert Impromptu for my ATCL exam

It shouldn't be too hard, it took me 3 months to learn the Etude but I had an incredible teacher and still had problems with the middle section. Two years should be more than enough

[starstruck5]

The thing with the Eb Impromptu is that is primarily for the right hand -and the Revolutionary is essentially a study for the left hand, only significantly more difficult.

A few of the Chopin Preludes are quite demanding for the left hand = have a go at these first?  Especially the G Major Number 3-

No reason why you can't have a go at learning the Study though - if you feel it is beyond you -try and analyse why - what is too difficult for you?  What are the technical areas you need to improve -you may find yourself coping quite well though - you won't know until you try I guess.

[hermansegerman]

I really think, Chopin revolut.et. is adequate to your current level.
I deeply loved Chopin's Etudes, because
1.) they are easy to memorize, as they are full of redundancy ( see. op.10.no.1) and full of clear and understandable structure
2.) it's the creed for all his works and they all are proof of his brilliant genius, when he wrote the etudes in his early life
3.) he gives you one or two "problems" to solve. the german word "Aufgabe" says it all, which means duty, task, job besides 'problem'
And that's the point: you have to fully understand the 'Aufgabe' of every single etude and your job is to find a strategy to solve it. Practising and studying such a masterpiece means to ORGANIZE the way you practise / study it. And I think, that's what the actual jump from Schubert's impromptus to Chopin's etudes really is.
What do you mean by "practising" a piece of music which is new to you? That's the actual question you have to think / worry about.

Another important point contributing to the success of practising is -no doubt- your motivation. I had to fall in love with the pieces before I could really master them. Just find the things of the piece you can fall in love with.

[wnlqxod]

Not years, but months. Yes, really, months. Five particular technical preparations that I would recommend for this piece are: fast C minor arpeggio on your left hand, passing the ring finger over the thumb without the ring finger slipping on both hands, solid octave technique on your right hand, and having dexterous pinky and ring fingers on your left hand. Of the recommended preparations, I would say that there are two things that you MUST have
 before trying this piece: strong left hand pinky and ring finger (the ring-finger-over-the-thumb thing will be easier with a more nimble ring finger, which in turn, requires strengh and flexibility), and solid right hand octave technique (no right hand octaves, no melody, no music).

The Revolutionary Etude fits surprisingly well under your fingers.  With that being said, there are two particularly annoying spots : The middle section (where he pushes tonality all over the place; the bar after your right hand does a Bb major chord hit and your left hand does a descending run to the Ab) and two particular bars in the exposition and the recapitulation (where your left hand does this: B natural - B natural - D - G - D - G - D - B - Bb - Bb - Db - G - Db - G - Db - Bb - A natural - A natural - C - F - C - F - C - A natural - Ab - Ab - C - F - C - F - C - Ab). The middle section is annoying because you use your pinky and your ring to guide your left hand up and down the keys, and the two particular bars in the exposition and recap are annoying because you have to use your ring finger as a pivot. Practice using staccato (more like marcato-staccato) first, and practice using staccato A LOT.

[beebert]

Really, months? isn't the range of difficulty that big in other words?

Thanks for your tips, I'll try them!

[maxwebr]

beebert,

just to give some perspective.. I started the Chopin Ballade No 3 in August 2010. It has taken me this long to grasp all the nuances to this piece. It is very hard. Looks easier than it really is. A lot to study and understand the mood and motifs he weaves throughout the piece.
Not saying it would take you that long, but it requires a tremendous amount of work to play proficiently.
Why don't you complete the two Beethoven sonatas you have mostly complete?

Bruce

[survivor23]

www.pianofundamentals.com

talks about mastering pieces in shorter periods of time by avoiding pitfalls. I just started playing again after a 15 year break, and I can tell you, the woman that wrote this knows her stuff.