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Topic: Let's get Brainy: Dunning–Kruger effect  (Read 2369 times)

Offline 49410enrique

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Let's get Brainy: Dunning–Kruger effect
on: December 31, 2011, 01:53:45 PM
ok seriously would like some intelligent feedback on this, if you're unfamiliar with this psychological phenomena, here's a brief description

Although the Dunning–Kruger effect was put forward in 1999, David Dunning and Justin Kruger have quoted Charles Darwin ("Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge")[3] and Bertrand Russell ("One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision")[4] as authors who have recognised the phenomenon.


The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled people make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to recognize their mistakes.[1] The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their ability as above average, much higher than it actually is, while the highly skilled underrate their own abilities, suffering from illusory inferiority.
 
Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. As Kruger and Dunning conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others" (p. 1127).[2] The effect is about paradoxical defects in cognitive ability, both in oneself and as one compares oneself to others
____________________________
now the relevance question, how often do you think or actually see this, both in general and as pianists? i liken it to the 'american idol' effect if you have seen the US version of the program (though i'd venture to say that this effect is universal so we'd prob see it in the internatinal forms of the show), where you have incredibly confident yet horrendously terribly performers utterly convinced of their mastery of said musical talent they attempt to audition with, then you have unbelievably  talented individuals who at their most confident seem quietly optmistic and humble sort of unaware of how good they actually are?  have you come across pianists like this?

hmm, i'm fascinated by this after a discussion with a biology professor of mine.

thanks for reading and i appreciate any thoughtful insight into this. i'm a nerd at heart and like learning about all sorts of sciences outside my primary disciplines (i'm manily a biochemistry guy, you know structure, function, electron movements, water, why how, that sort of thing).

Offline Bob

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Re: Let's get Brainy: Dunning–Kruger effect
Reply #1 on: December 31, 2011, 03:21:23 PM
There's another thread on this somewhere around here.  At least one.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline 49410enrique

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Re: Let's get Brainy: Dunning–Kruger effect
Reply #2 on: December 31, 2011, 07:27:37 PM
There's another thread on this somewhere around here.  At least one.
yikes orry I didn't get any hits ehen I googled it and usually if it is mentioned on the boards its at the top of the search results ill keep digging this effect fascinates me as it is found in so many disciplines and hypothesis on its origins are even more entertaining

Offline Derek

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Re: Let's get Brainy: Dunning–Kruger effect
Reply #3 on: August 20, 2012, 08:41:10 PM
It may not have been intentional on the part of enrique, and it may be coincidental, but I've gone through some enormous changes in the past year or so and I vividly remember feeling like I was hit with a ton of bricks when I found this post and read up on the dunning kruger effect. So, thanks enrique for bringing it to my attention.

I think I suffered particularly badly from this "effect," in both of my chosen areas, piano playing and programming. It's like I was never quite honest with myself with how little effort I've exerted over the years. Once I became aware of this, I was able to start building some real skill in both things. I may not rise very high having realized this so late, but at least I'll have something rather than lies.

The only real exception I think is personal improvisation, where I'm at liberty to create my own criteria for success or failure. In all other things, performance of pieces, performance at work, etc., I must care about external criteria. I think that's important to the dunning-kruger effect. There actually are some activities, such as improvisation, where you can believe you are succeeding and the rest of the world may think you are failing or are creating nothing of value, and the problem is it is so subjective who is to say "everyone else" is really correct in saying that. I allowed my perception of success in improvisation to buoy my self perception throughout college and through several recent years as I gradually became aware how incompetent I was at my job, holding out some hope that I'd eventually jump careers. When it finally hit me that I hadn't exerted any effort in piano playing either, it became very clear to me that I must begin exerting real effort in software engineering in order to continue to put food on the table into the future. Funny how life goes. What's really been troubling me is---nearly everyone I know, even some I've known since I was really little, are much harder working than I ever was. How was it that I came this far in life without lifting a finger? Oh well, doesn't matter now...better late than never I suppose.

Offline iansinclair

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Re: Let's get Brainy: Dunning–Kruger effect
Reply #4 on: August 20, 2012, 09:56:58 PM
I hadn't heard of it before -- thanks!

And does one see it elsewhere?  Oh my goodness sakes yes.  Try politics...
Ian

Offline 49410enrique

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Re: Let's get Brainy: Dunning–Kruger effect
Reply #5 on: August 21, 2012, 01:32:42 PM
I hadn't heard of it before -- thanks!

And does one see it elsewhere?  Oh my goodness sakes yes.  Try politics...
it's super interesting and thought to be a pretty general psychological phenom. that is not just limited to performing arts, but intellectural pursuits, athletic, etc. it's way interesting.

Derek-nor worries man, what's importnat is you are aware of your 'limitations' or percieved ones, that great thing about know where you 'lack' something (depending on how you judge 'lacking') is that you can then take action that realistically has a shot at helpingyou overcome them. how can we improve on anything if wehave yet to realize we need improvement at all, let alone know what exactly we want to try to improve and to what extent?

i think it's a super mature realization and probably one that sets you up for some uncommon success in the future :)

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Let's get Brainy: Dunning–Kruger effect
Reply #6 on: August 21, 2012, 02:27:34 PM
ok seriously would like some intelligent feedback on this, if you're unfamiliar with this psychological phenomena, here's a brief description

Although the Dunning–Kruger effect was put forward in 1999, David Dunning and Justin Kruger have quoted Charles Darwin ("Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge")[3] and Bertrand Russell ("One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision")[4] as authors who have recognised the phenomenon.


The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled people make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to recognize their mistakes.[1] The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their ability as above average, much higher than it actually is, while the highly skilled underrate their own abilities, suffering from illusory inferiority.
 
Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. As Kruger and Dunning conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others" (p. 1127).[2] The effect is about paradoxical defects in cognitive ability, both in oneself and as one compares oneself to others
____________________________
now the relevance question, how often do you think or actually see this, both in general and as pianists? i liken it to the 'american idol' effect if you have seen the US version of the program (though i'd venture to say that this effect is universal so we'd prob see it in the internatinal forms of the show), where you have incredibly confident yet horrendously terribly performers utterly convinced of their mastery of said musical talent they attempt to audition with, then you have unbelievably  talented individuals who at their most confident seem quietly optmistic and humble sort of unaware of how good they actually are?  have you come across pianists like this?

hmm, i'm fascinated by this after a discussion with a biology professor of mine.

thanks for reading and i appreciate any thoughtful insight into this. i'm a nerd at heart and like learning about all sorts of sciences outside my primary disciplines (i'm manily a biochemistry guy, you know structure, function, electron movements, water, why how, that sort of thing).

I remember this from Psych class! 

Have you heard of Howard Gardners multiple intelligence theory? 

Someone like him would say something along the lines of...

'well these guys who think they're really good at something but actually suck, or is really good at something but think they suck, just have weak interpersonal intelligence.  Which means that they suck at judging themselves accurately.  But since there seems to be some weird correlation going on here with people who are actually good at something, but undershooting themselves, and people who think they're good at something, bug actually suck, something must be going on here!  But since correlation doesn't = causation, we can't really do anything here...'

That would probably be his take on it.  Well here's my take!

I don't know...   :-[
Live large, die large.  Leave a giant coffin.

Offline davidjosepha

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Re: Let's get Brainy: Dunning–Kruger effect
Reply #7 on: August 21, 2012, 02:37:28 PM
'well these guys who think they're really good at something but actually suck, or is really good at something but think they suck, just have weak interpersonal intelligence.  Which means that they suck at judging themselves accurately.  But since there seems to be some weird correlation going on here with people who are actually good at something, but undershooting themselves, and people who think they're good at something, bug actually suck, something must be going on here!  But since correlation doesn't = causation, we can't really do anything here...'

"I think I'm bad at judging myself accurately"

Offline ted

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Re: Let's get Brainy: Dunning–Kruger effect
Reply #8 on: August 26, 2012, 12:30:39 AM
I had heard about this but if it exists I don't think I have ever been susceptible to it either way. The act of blowing my own trumpet in any fashion is distasteful irrespective of my ability. We live in a world now where modesty and moderation are out of fashion and bloated extremes are paraded as definitions of personal success. Some of them imply ability, some not, but most believe pushing, shoving and shouting about it is the way to go regardless. I haven't actually noticed much modesty, false or otherwise, around recently.

"Mistakes are the portals of discovery." - James Joyce

Offline Derek

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Re: Let's get Brainy: Dunning–Kruger effect
Reply #9 on: August 30, 2012, 01:57:50 AM
I wasn't sure if the effect necessarily referred to arrogance or simply overconfidence. I'm pretty sure I've been both; but I also think I lost my arrogance before I realized I was still overconfident. I experienced this most intensely in my career as a software engineer, being surrounded by highly accomplished engineers drove it home very clearly. It's like for years I thought a narrow set of knowledge I acquired around age 14 thru about 17 would be enough to carry me through college and my first couple of jobs, without reading, without studying new material. In retrospect it sounds almost insane, but that's really how I was---refused to study, refused to really think about information that was outside my own little world. Since being a software engineer requires teamwork and feedback loops spread out amongst several people, study and the ability to take in information from the outside is extremely important. Hence my realization I suffered from this effect.

In music, this is a more difficult question. Because it is definitely possible to be inside one's own musical world, complete with its own rules (or lack thereof), and definitions of what is good or boring, but have the rest of the world, with its established rules and so forth, think what you're doing is nonsense. So, established academia may say I am a sufferer of the Dunning Kruger effect by seeming to know something about improvisation, since I do not refer to the vast amount of accumulated research in the field of academic music when I impart my knowledge about it. However, in my own little world, I create music I like and that's all I really care about. So---it seems Dunning Kruger may have an important social component. In other words, mediocrity, skill, etc. may not always be measurable in a purely objective sense. In software engineering though it most certainly is. In any case...I found this information immensely valuable to me!

*edit* I'd also add I think I did suffer from it in music on purely the performance side of things. Not considering improvisation at all, I think I felt that a narrow set of techniques that I believe I acquired within the first four or five years of playing would carry me forever---namely, legato scales, arpeggios, and a handful of other very easy techniques. I think I was under the impression for a long time that I would just magically become virtuosic without any real concerted effort in that direction. I sure spent a lot of energy worrying about it---but very little energy actually acting on it. Yet I still believed I'd get there. It's like I was really and truly robbed of the ability to realize how little physical skill I had at the piano (hence D K effect), because I refused to admit how little I had----which would be necessary in order to actually build upon it and improve.  What have I done with this realization? I've basically accepted reality---unless I spend a large amount of time with careful practice, my technique *will not* improve quickly. Obviously part of this is attitude---but as my career demands an enormous amount of mental energy from me, I think all it really leaves me is improvisation with somewhat mediocre technique. Which is fine by me!

Offline chopin2015

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Re: Let's get Brainy: Dunning–Kruger effect
Reply #10 on: September 05, 2012, 03:29:10 AM
Just another matter of how convincing other people and other people's world views around you are?How competent are you in this compared to this? Are you as competent as the stranger who just appeared out of nowhere and is passing you exactly during the moment of you questioning your own competencies, atleast you are indeed questioning them (the ability to organize a process), which according to the Kruger effect, this questioning may conclude to a lack of confidence or was the man in the hat who just passed you by who seemed more competent-just a coincidence? or an object of higher, unobtainable thought who appeared to remind you of your insignificance and humility?
 
I'm trying to brainstorm here but honestly am more of a bullshitter when it comes tot this topic. :)
"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Let's get Brainy: Dunning–Kruger effect
Reply #11 on: September 14, 2012, 07:08:13 PM
The stupid are too stupid to know they are stupid.

You think what you know is everything there is to know so you don't know that there is more to know simply because you don't know that there is more to know.

The one exception to this occurs when a person is in the top 5 percentile.  In this case, they know the most except they think they know less than they do.  This is because they know what they know AND know what they don't know.

Offline chopin2015

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Re: Let's get Brainy: Dunning–Kruger effect
Reply #12 on: September 15, 2012, 03:34:45 AM
Recently, a concept has been brought to my attention. It makes me feel really OCD.
 The difference between citing some information, "regurgitating it(information)" or actually stating what you know, in your own original words and thought that is elaborate to express your very intelligence. Anyone can read a book, more or less. But...(fill in the blank here, explain what learning and educated thought means to you).
"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Offline 49410enrique

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Re: Let's get Brainy: Dunning–Kruger effect
Reply #13 on: September 15, 2012, 12:09:50 PM
Recently, a concept has been brought to my attention. It makes me feel really OCD.
 The difference between citing some information, "regurgitating it(information)" or actually stating what you know, in your own original words and thought that is elaborate to express your very intelligence. Anyone can read a book, more or less. But...(fill in the blank here, explain what learning and educated thought means to you).
i tend to associate content mastery with the synthesis of new ideas that adhere to proven concepts. also when you start do multi disciplinary thinking, i think you've got it, that whole 'outside the box' kind of thinking where you can pull info from different subjects and apply them to explain abstract concepts, etc.

also, can you teach a complex idea in relatively simple terms so that it makes sense to a 'beginner' and to someone pretty familiar with the subject.

Offline chopin2015

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Re: Let's get Brainy: Dunning–Kruger effect
Reply #14 on: September 15, 2012, 02:01:01 PM
Thanks, 49410enrique!
"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Let's get Brainy: Dunning–Kruger effect
Reply #15 on: September 15, 2012, 06:51:36 PM
The thing about learning is that it's actually the same thing as memorization.  Think of everything you can do like write your name, walk down the street, or play the piano, and all of it is because you've memorized them.  So when you regurgitate, it's fine since you're just trying to learn. 
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