help for chopin op 53

[drazh]

Hi
I began working on Chopin heroic Polanais op 53.but 1st bar double notes are very difficult to play .is there any tips?
Thanks

[black_keys]

Try for the 1st bar 31-41-52-51-42-51-42

the 5th bar  31-42-51-42-51-42-51

the 9th bar 51-42-51-41-52-41-52

the 11th bar 42-51-42-51-42-51-42

it should work  

[drazh]

Dear black_keys
I know fingering but is there any special practice or motion or  study to help?
Thanks

[enjru]

I use this fingering for the 1st bar (I think it allows more legato in the top notes):

21-31-42-51-42-51-42

The main difficulty that I can imagine would be memorizing the notes and the fingering for the 1st few 4ths. The 42-51-42-51-42 etc should feel quite natural. I keep the 51 in a "crouched" position and raise the 42 (obviously together with finger 3 raised as well) and then keep "bowing down" the 42 as if they are bowing down repeatedly before Her Majesty (obviously not letting finger 3 press on any note).

Good luck practising!
Enjru

[black_keys]

ummm I dont know ..... but i think this "hand motion" appear in Bach fugues ( but slower than polonaise) they should be familiar to you if you are at polonaise level  , practice them very slowly and LEGATO (ex: hold your 1 and 4 fingers down on white keys and rise you 5 and 2 to the next black keys without leaving the previous .....) until u can play them without looking , then you can start to raise your speed

[birba]

I cheat:
r.h. 2 3 4 5 4 5 4     3 4 5 4 5 2 5  the most difficult: 1 2 3 4 5 4 5      4 5 4 5 4 5 4
        1 2 1 2 1 2     1 2 1 2 1 2 1                                   1 2 1 2      2 1 2 1 2 1 2
l.h. 2                                                                 2 1-1
     4 3 2 1 3 2 1      whatever                               4 3 2 4 3 2 1       whatever

[drazh]

Dear birba
Please explain more . Do you mean double notes ?
Thanks

[birba]

Dear birba
Please explain more . Do you mean double notes ?
Thanks

Yes.  the left hand takes the first double notes in the first run and then the right hand continues with the double notes.  In the second run, the right hand takes all the double notes. In the third run, the left hand takes the first three  double notes, and in the last run the right hand takes all of them.  The touch, of course, is a non legato with a vibrating of the forearm.  In slow work, exaggerate the crescendo going from pp to forte. 

[ajspiano]

The touch, of course, is a non legato with a vibrating of the forearm. 

not how i'd explain it, but I would most certainly have to agree with this.. 

you can also experiment with flatter fingers if you like - watch a horowitz video. This probably isnt for everyone though.

[black_keys]

  The touch, of course, is a non legato with a vibrating of the forearm.   

I know it's played non legato , when i say legato i mean while practicing slowly to help the fingers finding the way

[ajspiano]

the "vibrating of the forearm" was the part I was most concerned with.

[birba]

I'm really not saying anything out of the ordinary.  It's not just fingerwork: there's a pulsating of the forearm with each chord.  But this is how I play it.  I'm sure there are many other valid ways of getting through it.  It's the exciting quality of the result that's important.

[ajspiano]

there's a pulsating of the forearm with each chord.  But this is how I play it.  I'm sure there are many other valid ways of getting through it.

I think the difficulty is that if you don't do this you have to kind of stretch/pull your fingers over each other. Particularly problematic in this situation since you have to lift and pull fingers 3,4,5 against each other..

When the forearm supports the motion, the fingers are lifted and then placed down onto the notes, they never stretch and twist around themselves and always remain comfortable.

Is that you're thoughts birba? When I first learnt the polonaise this was one of my problems and I could never play this section with any real excitement the way the music demands.. the forearm motion was what made the different for me..

I will have to try your fingering also birba.. seems like an interesting and valuable idea to explore.

[ajspiano]

Also, the middle section of Op 10 No 3 helped... where you have all the tri-tones going cromatically (LH) and following an augmented pattern (RH)

[birba]

I don't see exactly where in the sonata you're talking about, but, yes, the movement of the forearm helps the articulation of the double notes.

[drazh]

I cheat:
r.h. 2 3 4 5 4 5 4     3 4 5 4 5 2 5  the most difficult: 1 2 3 4 5 4 5      4 5 4 5 4 5 4
        1 2 1 2 1 2     1 2 1 2 1 2 1                                   1 2 1 2      2 1 2 1 2 1 2
l.h. 2                                                                 2 1-1
     4 3 2 1 3 2 1      whatever                               4 3 2 4 3 2 1       whatever

Dear birba
I'm sorry because English is not my first language I don't understand you .would you please explain it something like this
 1st bar 31-41-52-51-42-51-42

the 5th bar 31-42-51-42-51-42-51

the 9th bar 51-42-51-41-52-41-52

the 11th bar 42-51-42-51-42-51-42
Thanks

[birba]

I'm sorry.  Actually I saw it's not that much different from the one you have except for the left hand taking over a few notes.

first bar: 2  3-1  4-2 5-1 4-2 5-1 4-2  (l.h. plays 2-4 the first chord)

fifth bar:  3-1 4-2 5-1-4-2 5-1 4-2 5-1 (l.h. plays single notes)

ninth bar:  1  2  3  4-1 5-2 4-1 5-2  (l.h. plays 2-4 1-3  1-2 the first three chords then single notes.)

11th bar:  4-2 5-1 4-2 5-1 4-2 5-1 4-2

[ajspiano]

I don't see exactly where in the sonata you're talking about

were you referring to my middle section of op 10. no 3 comment?  i meant the chopin etude..

[birba]

Just goes to show how certain combinations of numbers are lodged in our memory!

[lisztarian]

Well... I have a TOTALLY different fingering. It could be interesting to try, perhaps more difficult to many, but try it out and see how it goes. All what you have to do is basically play the lower note of the right hand with the left hand. By doing so, you will be playing one note note in the right hand, and a chromatic thirds with the left hand. Call me crazy, but thirds in the left hand is easier for some than fourths in the right hand ! Greetings!!!!

[drazh]

Dear lisztarian
Interesting I will try that
Thanks