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Topic: What's the worst that could happen?  (Read 2475 times)

Offline Mayla

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What's the worst that could happen?
on: January 08, 2012, 09:58:08 PM
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline williampiano

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #1 on: January 08, 2012, 10:07:24 PM
Well I suppose that would be bad for all major youth piano competitions. If there wasn't an age limit on those, then most of the youths and\or kids would lose to the adults. Though, I think no age limits would be fine on all other music competitions.

Offline Mayla

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #2 on: January 08, 2012, 10:15:16 PM
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline birba

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #3 on: January 08, 2012, 11:22:42 PM
If there wasn't an age limit on those, then most of the youths and\or kids would lose to the adults.
I don't know about that.  It'd be hard for anyone to compete with enzopiano or arielpiano!  ;D

Offline pianoplayjl

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #4 on: January 09, 2012, 01:10:23 AM
Experience counts a lot, from my point of view. But yes it would be hard to compete with them because they have the technique capability, maturity and musicianship of an adult. I guess it might turn into a one sided contest with teenagers like enzopiano or arielpiano winnign all over the place. Hmmm, I rarely see or hear of prestigious international piano competitions primarily for teenagers and kids.

JL
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Offline jesc

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #5 on: January 09, 2012, 03:06:54 AM
I don't know. Even a talent like Yuja Wang, her perfection of pieces when she was 12 seemed trivial when compared to her mature performances. I'll go with emotional maturity over youth.

Offline Mayla

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #6 on: January 09, 2012, 03:19:44 AM
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline Mayla

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #7 on: January 09, 2012, 03:29:31 AM
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline quantum

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #8 on: January 09, 2012, 10:16:13 PM
Perhaps there would be less focus on sex-it-up eye-candy of a competition winning youth on a CD cover hosted by a major recording label. 

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Offline littletune

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #9 on: January 09, 2012, 10:34:20 PM
If all the major competitions in the world didn't have age limits?  
You know Mayla that I have been thinking a lot about why all those competitions always have age limits....  :-\ I don't get it... it just seems stupid... I think it's just one of the stupid rules that people make up just cause they think that's the way it should be and then they don't think about it anymore but just say: that's just the way it is... I mean even in a lot of music schools (in my country) you have to be 7 to 9 years old if you want to start learning piano!!!  :o that's just stupid! I think it's discrimination!!  >:( Cause it's not like you can do anything about your age, but you can do something about how you play, but that doesn't matter cause the thing you can't do anything about doesn't seem right to some people.  ::)  ::)

Offline quantum

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #10 on: January 09, 2012, 11:35:53 PM
littletune, this probably has been said before but it won't hurt to reiterate: you are far wiser than your age.   :)
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline Mayla

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #11 on: January 09, 2012, 11:55:58 PM
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline werq34ac

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #12 on: January 10, 2012, 12:42:48 AM
Yeah I've been wondering that too. Why not allow ole gramps to play at the Chopin competition or something?

I'm not absolutely certain, and I'm probably VERY far from the truth, but I'm guessing that older competition level pianists are mature and one cannot judge a 1st place winner from them. At that point, one cannot really judge interpretation and artistry since there would clearly be no lack of musical maturity from these performers. It would sort of be like having a competition between Horowitz, Arrau, Rubinstein, Richter, Gilels, etc. You can't declare a 1st place winner without pissing a LOT of people off.

My point being, I guess in one's 20s, playing is still judge-able and can be compared to other's playing while when professional pianists get in their 30s, it would be like comparing a ruby necklace to a sapphire ring.
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Offline Mayla

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #13 on: January 10, 2012, 12:58:20 AM
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline williampiano

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #14 on: January 10, 2012, 03:44:55 AM
I totally understand what you all mean. I think there should be no age limit on major adult piano competitions. Though, I was just saying, I usually compete in children's piano competitions, and if all age limits were dropped on those, and suddenly I was competing against more experienced, say... 25 year old pianists and what not, I would be a slight bit irked.

Offline ajspiano

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #15 on: January 10, 2012, 04:23:36 AM
what if we just stopped trying to be so competitive in such a subjective field and had performances that weren't objectively judged?

#WILLNEVERHAPPEN.

Offline williampiano

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #16 on: January 10, 2012, 04:34:27 AM
what if we just stopped trying to be so competitive in such a subjective field and had performances that weren't objectively judged?

#WILLNEVERHAPPEN.

Because some people enjoy competing in hobbies and fields that they like, and sometimes if they do well enough, winning an award for their hard work. That's part of the point of competitions. If there was no judging and competing, it would just be a recital.

Offline ajspiano

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #17 on: January 10, 2012, 04:48:19 AM
i have no problem with competition, just when its in a situation that can not be objectively judged. Nor do I mean to discredit the value of your work if you have had some success in competitions..

I just find the idea of judging performances of 2 different completely different artistic works against each other to be a little bit insane.

it'd be like having a group of people play soccer, by themselves, and another group play basketball by themselves and then declaring a winner afterwards..   I'll accept that you can make a subjective judgement of who was better generally..  but having a firm objective judgement is often going to be exceedingly difficult and be subject to heavy debate.

Offline littletune

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #18 on: January 10, 2012, 08:38:51 PM
littletune, this probably has been said before but it won't hurt to reiterate: you are far wiser than your age.   :)
Thank you Quantum! :)  :P

I totally understand what you all mean. I think there should be no age limit on major adult piano competitions. Though, I was just saying, I usually compete in children's piano competitions, and if all age limits were dropped on those, and suddenly I was competing against more experienced, say... 25 year old pianists and what not, I would be a slight bit irked.

But what if that 25 year old would only be learning piano for a year or something?  :-\
I mean I started learning piano kinda late (only two years ago) and most kids start learning at 6 or 7... so of course when they're 13 they play way better than me... but I probably wouldn't be allowed to be in a competition with 8 or 9 year olds who have been learning piano as long as I have...  :-\ I don't know... and it's not that I would really wish to be in a competition cause I get too nervous anyway  :P just...

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #19 on: January 10, 2012, 10:59:24 PM
After all you can maybe only compete with yourself anyway.

Offline ajspiano

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #20 on: January 10, 2012, 11:10:11 PM
After all you can maybe only compete with yourself anyway.

^this..

also..
and it's not that I would really wish to be in a competition cause I get too nervous anyway  :P

when I played in competitions as a kid (younger than you) I remember being so nervous that my hands would shake to the point of being unable to strike a key accurately, and sweating so much that I would slip all over the keys..

practicing performance makes you better at performing though..  now i feel no nerves at all.. even if i make mistakes - i just make the audience believe that i meant them.

Offline williampiano

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #21 on: January 11, 2012, 12:36:50 AM
But what if that 25 year old would only be learning piano for a year or something?  :-\
I mean I started learning piano kinda late (only two years ago) and most kids start learning at 6 or 7... so of course when they're 13 they play way better than me... but I probably wouldn't be allowed to be in a competition with 8 or 9 year olds who have been learning piano as long as I have...  :-\ I don't know... and it's not that I would really wish to be in a competition cause I get too nervous anyway  :P just...
I was just saying, if there were no competitions for strictly just children, then it would be kind of a bummer for kids that are say... 7-11 years old, that would like to compete in something. I mean, it would be kind of bad if in all competitions, a 10 year old piano player had to worry about competing against a 30 year pianist who may possibly have 15 years of experience already. That's why I think it is a good idea for children to have competitions available where they can compete against other players that are around their own age only.
Also, for adult beginners, I'm not necessarily sure, but I imagine there are some comps. for beginners of all ages.

Offline jesc

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #22 on: January 11, 2012, 03:25:33 AM
Everyone assumes some sort of a constant: "A rule applying to all."

What if we take that away? No rules applying to all competitions?

Therefore, we can have competitions that have age limits which would be a stepping stone to those who are new. Also, we can have competitions that don't have age limits for those who think they can tackle the big guys/gals at their young age.

Two types of competitions operating on different basic rules. Why not enable the possibility to have both?

Heck, if you know someone (powerful) who can finance a high level competition that will have rules that suits your taste why not give it a go?

Offline Bob

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #23 on: January 11, 2012, 12:45:39 PM
What's the deal?  Did you age out of a competition Mayla?

I thought there were amateur competitions, open to any age.  Are most competitions restricted to "below 25 years" or something like that?
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline birba

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #24 on: January 11, 2012, 12:52:18 PM
When I was making the rounds of the competitions a few years ago (ahem!) I noticed there were those who actually got a thrill out of the competition scen and it even made them play better.  Jeffrey Swann was one of those.  I met guys who toured the world from one competition to the next, winning 3rd and 4th prizes, maybe none, but making a living out of it.  It was depressing.

Offline 49410enrique

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #25 on: January 11, 2012, 01:57:33 PM
What's the deal?  Did you age out of a competition Mayla?

I thought there were amateur competitions, open to any age.  Are most competitions restricted to "below 25 years" or something like that?
pretty much all the competitions i've read about are very specific about upper age limits/birth years, yeah i've yet to see a compitition open to anyone (i suppose there might be acouple but they seem rare) above that 25-31 years of age range, yeah except for a few of the 'amateur' ones, even then, those sometimes exclude anyone that studied music in college even they are are an amateur so if you're say a real estate agent or a physician and your undergrand degree was a piano degree, you can't play with those kids.  i think they're trying to be fair but it seems like a lose lose either way

oh i almost forgot i have seen similar age restrictions on the back end of amateuar competitions that is i have seen them excluding younger artists, again this seems stupid but the van cliburn one for example has a starting age of 35, so apparently you can't be a young amateur, and of course now you're too old for many standard ones, you're too young for amateuar ones, and if you studed piano in college but piano remains an avocation, you're just plain $I-I1t out of luck

Offline rmbarbosa

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #26 on: January 11, 2012, 04:00:38 PM
Well, once I saw in youtube a very old pianist giving a recital. He used black gloves without fingers because with his age he felt cold. And he played very simple pieces also because he was very old. I dont remember his name... but it was a spectacle of human decay. I fear that this very old pianist also would compete if there wasnt age limits, dear Mayla ...

Offline littletune

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #27 on: January 11, 2012, 08:55:52 PM
^this..

also..
when I played in competitions as a kid (younger than you) I remember being so nervous that my hands would shake to the point of being unable to strike a key accurately, and sweating so much that I would slip all over the keys..

practicing performance makes you better at performing though..  now i feel no nerves at all.. even if i make mistakes - i just make the audience believe that i meant them.



My hands are always shaking a lot too! and I always make stupid mistakes cause my hands don't want to work like they should! ::) :P

I was just saying, if there were no competitions for strictly just children, then it would be kind of a bummer for kids that are say... 7-11 years old, that would like to compete in something. I mean, it would be kind of bad if in all competitions, a 10 year old piano player had to worry about competing against a 30 year pianist who may possibly have 15 years of experience already. That's why I think it is a good idea for children to have competitions available where they can compete against other players that are around their own age only.
Also, for adult beginners, I'm not necessarily sure, but I imagine there are some comps. for beginners of all ages.

Yes I know I think there should be competitions just for kids of course! But I just think that also older people (or older kids who started learning later) should get the same chance as those who start learning early.

Offline 49410enrique

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #28 on: January 11, 2012, 09:05:49 PM
tell you what though, the good thing about all of this is that i would never be in a position where i was up against this:

or this
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
or this

there's so many! these little ones would wipe the floor with me, i mean talk about making you look bad, i'd hear that right before and just leave with my head down, no that's alright you guys can skip me, i'm good... :'(

Offline williampiano

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #29 on: January 11, 2012, 11:18:16 PM
I mean I started learning piano kinda late (only two years ago) and most kids start learning at 6 or 7... so of course when they're 13 they play way better than me... but I probably wouldn't be allowed to be in a competition with 8 or 9 year olds who have been learning piano as long as I have...  :-\
But I just think that also older people (or older kids who started learning later) should get the same chance as those who start learning early.
I do agree with you, and there are some festivals like that, where beginners of all ages can compete against each other.
----------------------------------
tell you what though, the good thing about all of this is that i would never be in a position where i was up against this:

or this
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
or this

there's so many! these little ones would wipe the floor with me, i mean talk about making you look bad, i'd hear that right before and just leave with my head down, no that's alright you guys can skip me, i'm good... :'(
I can only pray that I never have to compete with any of them!  ;)

Offline jesc

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #30 on: January 12, 2012, 02:38:52 AM
What's the deal?  Did you age out of a competition Mayla?

I thought there were amateur competitions, open to any age.  Are most competitions restricted to "below 25 years" or something like that?

IMO Mayla's issues are more philosophical than that. However due to my... ehm, inexperience with this forum as a relatively "new" comer, I'll yield to people who really knew her for a long time.

However, after viewing the videos above I'll have to echo Bob's sentiment...

"What's the deal?"

Can someone (20+ years old) who's been in international competitions all over the world post here and say they're threatened by them? Forget the competitions, I mean, even someone who just graduated with a degree in music specializing in piano.

Another thing, I think most people are easily blinded with a "child" playing such pieces. Remember, in competitions with a higher age bracket, you're most likely competing with adults who were prodigies when they were children (like the ones posted above).

There's no avoiding the fact, you'll be running against these in all walks of life and you can't hide from them.

Offline Mayla

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #31 on: January 12, 2012, 03:18:24 AM
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline 49410enrique

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #32 on: January 12, 2012, 03:46:43 AM


However, after viewing the videos above I'll have to echo Bob's sentiment...

"What's the deal?"

Can someone (20+ years old) who's been in international competitions all over the world post here and say they're threatened by them? Forget the competitions, I mean, even someone who just graduated with a degree in music specializing in piano.

 
you made some very good points. really.

i think my comment and videos which were meant more in good fun and geunine admiration for those little ones (they're so cute with their little legs on their pedal booters!), i think i got taken literally where i certainly didn't mean to, i forget things like tone don't come across very well over the internet, nonetheless your response was quite good and the thread is better for it, my responses are boderline rubbished even on my best days when i accidently say something correct

Offline jesc

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #33 on: January 12, 2012, 04:25:11 AM
you made some very good points. really.

i think my comment and videos which were meant more in good fun and geunine admiration for those little ones (they're so cute with their little legs on their pedal booters!), i think i got taken literally where i certainly didn't mean to, i forget things like tone don't come across very well over the internet, nonetheless your response was quite good and the thread is better for it, my responses are boderline rubbished even on my best days when i accidently say something correct

Well if were going for cuteness :) here's one I find cute. Especially near the end when you can see her bouncing off the seat (sometimes needing the extra weight).



Offline birba

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #34 on: January 12, 2012, 07:46:45 AM
That was pure joy to watch.  Because she played with pure joy.   ;D

Offline Mayla

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #35 on: January 12, 2012, 05:20:47 PM
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline ahinton

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #36 on: January 12, 2012, 05:35:15 PM
Well if were going for cuteness :) here's one I find cute. Especially near the end when you can see her bouncing off the seat (sometimes needing the extra weight).




"Cute"? Not to me. Perhaps I'm being somewhat insensitive. But pretty impressive, for all that - and this is surely what matters.

Best,

Alistair
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Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline birba

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #37 on: January 12, 2012, 10:07:59 PM
As adults, we enjoy and appreciate this, and are capable of enjoying and appreciating this, because those qualities are actually present within us.  It awakens and speaks to us on a deeper level, to whatever degree, as another facet of who we are purely capable of being - even if only in moments - as man.  
You lost me there...

Offline ajspiano

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #38 on: January 12, 2012, 10:24:14 PM
I gather that mayla is commenting on the fact that as adults we can see and appreciate joy in another person, particularly in a child without having to be actively in the experience ourselves.

Children live more in the moment, they don't stop and reflect on their experience or anyone elses the way adults sometimes do.

but then I got kind of lost at the end of the post too..

Offline jesc

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #39 on: January 12, 2012, 11:09:32 PM
"Cute"? Not to me. Perhaps I'm being somewhat insensitive. But pretty impressive, for all that - and this is surely what matters.

Best,

Alistair

If we're throwing sensitivity off the window, that performance was subpar. She knows it. That's why she uploaded a new video.



Back to OP topic of age limit:

Call it coincidence, but this clearly illustrates part of a child pianist growing up and maturing (or gaining experience, in reference to some of the posts above). That's two years IIRC... two years gap between performances. The piece is growing up with her.

Now here's a thought:
Imagine a competition with her older self competing with her younger self. Listen to the two videos, it's quite evident now that the younger version would get slaughtered. Now imagine further, she's 25+ years old against that younger version.

Sorry about going on this again. It seems like a perfect illustration.

Offline Mayla

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #40 on: January 13, 2012, 02:56:46 AM
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline Mayla

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #41 on: January 13, 2012, 04:18:49 AM
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline birba

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #42 on: January 13, 2012, 07:05:11 AM
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Then apparently it was intended for somebody else.
Funny.  Being a forum for discussion, I was actually expecting you to elucidate on what you said.  Instead, I get a snide remark.

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #43 on: January 13, 2012, 10:37:47 AM
After all, I think it would be a good thing if there were no more age limits in musical competitions. There could be several age groups like in sports.

Offline littletune

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #44 on: January 13, 2012, 02:58:12 PM
Oh Mayla and Birba please don't argue!!!  :( Cause you're both soooooo cool!  8)

Birba I don't think Mayla meant anything bad with what she said! I think it's more like... you know just like things in life... you understand them or notice them when you're supposed to or when you need to... and if you don't need to then you don't understand them...  :-\ ...and it's not even possible to explain those things... cause it's just not... And I don't always understand everything she says either but some things I do understand even when other people don't cause it's just like my mind sometimes works in the same ways as her mind... so I just get it and when it doesn't I don't...

Offline birba

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #45 on: January 13, 2012, 04:22:52 PM
Cool it!  Nothing has happened!   ;D

Offline Mayla

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #46 on: January 13, 2012, 04:42:00 PM
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline Mayla

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Re: What's the worst that could happen?
Reply #47 on: January 13, 2012, 06:19:41 PM
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes
 

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