What's the worst that could happen?

[m1469]

If all the major competitions in the world didn't have age limits?  

[williampiano]

Well I suppose that would be bad for all major youth piano competitions. If there wasn't an age limit on those, then most of the youths and\or kids would lose to the adults. Though, I think no age limits would be fine on all other music competitions.

[m1469]

I guess it depends on what you consider to be "youth" ... lately they are all seeming like youth competitions to me   .  So, I mean, competitions like the Van Cliburn, for example, and other extremely sought after wins ...

[birba]

If there wasn't an age limit on those, then most of the youths and\or kids would lose to the adults.

I don't know about that.  It'd be hard for anyone to compete with enzopiano or arielpiano! 

[pianoplayjl]

Experience counts a lot, from my point of view. But yes it would be hard to compete with them because they have the technique capability, maturity and musicianship of an adult. I guess it might turn into a one sided contest with teenagers like enzopiano or arielpiano winnign all over the place. Hmmm, I rarely see or hear of prestigious international piano competitions primarily for teenagers and kids.

JL

[jesc]

I don't know. Even a talent like Yuja Wang, her perfection of pieces when she was 12 seemed trivial when compared to her mature performances. I'll go with emotional maturity over youth.

[m1469]

I understand a need for some categorization, but I am sincerely curious as to what it is, exactly, that holds back competitions -who are supposedly scouting out the best musicians- from taking off age limits?  There must be a specific thought behind it - as though doing that would somehow degenerate the prestige of the competition ... or ... what?  What do people imagine would happen if that were the case that is so bad that it keeps it from happening?

[m1469]

Or, to put it another way, what is it that stops the "powerhouse" constructs of the piano world, like these major competitions who define what it means to be a pianist to so many people (even if eventually that concept can be grown out of, many people never get to the point of growing out of it), from embracing an ageless definition of musicianship, and the desire to support that?

[quantum]

Perhaps there would be less focus on sex-it-up eye-candy of a competition winning youth on a CD cover hosted by a major recording label. 

[littletune]

If all the major competitions in the world didn't have age limits?  

You know m1469 that I have been thinking a lot about why all those competitions always have age limits....  I don't get it... it just seems stupid... I think it's just one of the stupid rules that people make up just cause they think that's the way it should be and then they don't think about it anymore but just say: that's just the way it is... I mean even in a lot of music schools (in my country) you have to be 7 to 9 years old if you want to start learning piano!!!  that's just stupid! I think it's discrimination!!  Cause it's not like you can do anything about your age, but you can do something about how you play, but that doesn't matter cause the thing you can't do anything about doesn't seem right to some people.   

[quantum]

littletune, this probably has been said before but it won't hurt to reiterate: you are far wiser than your age.   

[m1469]

... I think it's just one of the stupid rules that people make up just cause they think that's the way it should be and then they don't think about it anymore but just say: that's just the way it is...

Yes, there is an element of this that I've recently thought about in relation, too.  It's just that it's been that way for a certain amount of time, and so that's how it is today.  As though nobody's ever seriously reconsidered how things are, or why they are that way!  I mean, really, what's going to happen, everything, all piano-related artistic matters will fall to shambles and become obliterated in society?  Of course, I think people do feel that there *have* been past reasons for age limits and such, but are they seriously still as pertinent in the same ways, today?  What are we missing out on by maintaining something like that, built upon a completely different era in the world?  Even just 10-12 years ago, the world in general and the world of art and music and piano was a completely different era.  That's just one part of it, too.  That doesn't even fully address the general attitude it breeds in developing artists and in the world, with regard to music and art.  That attitude doesn't breed art and music, at least not in an artful and musical way  !  And, I guess people are just OK with that, as though that's a better option for the longevity and potency of the art itself than not having that attitude is?    

[werq34ac]

Yeah I've been wondering that too. Why not allow ole gramps to play at the Chopin competition or something?

I'm not absolutely certain, and I'm probably VERY far from the truth, but I'm guessing that older competition level pianists are mature and one cannot judge a 1st place winner from them. At that point, one cannot really judge interpretation and artistry since there would clearly be no lack of musical maturity from these performers. It would sort of be like having a competition between Horowitz, Arrau, Rubinstein, Richter, Gilels, etc. You can't declare a 1st place winner without pissing a LOT of people off.

My point being, I guess in one's 20s, playing is still judge-able and can be compared to other's playing while when professional pianists get in their 30s, it would be like comparing a ruby necklace to a sapphire ring.

[m1469]

I guess in one's 20s, playing is still judge-able (...)

That's because most of them are playing in the contest in order to win a contest before they are too old to be in a contest, win a contest, and therefore be a pianist   ... vs. playing as a form of recognizing that they are embarking on an unlimited lifetime full of beautiful craftsmanship and art.

Anyhoo, I'll take sapphires ... AND diamonds ... not a ring or a bracelet though, I'm sparse with those.  I'll take a beautiful necklace and earrings please, thanks  .  Okay, and a different ruby necklace and earrings, too.  Not anything goddy though, it doesn't gel with me.

[williampiano]

I totally understand what you all mean. I think there should be no age limit on major adult piano competitions. Though, I was just saying, I usually compete in children's piano competitions, and if all age limits were dropped on those, and suddenly I was competing against more experienced, say... 25 year old pianists and what not, I would be a slight bit irked.

[ajspiano]

what if we just stopped trying to be so competitive in such a subjective field and had performances that weren't objectively judged?

#WILLNEVERHAPPEN.

[williampiano]

what if we just stopped trying to be so competitive in such a subjective field and had performances that weren't objectively judged?

#WILLNEVERHAPPEN.

Because some people enjoy competing in hobbies and fields that they like, and sometimes if they do well enough, winning an award for their hard work. That's part of the point of competitions. If there was no judging and competing, it would just be a recital.

[ajspiano]

i have no problem with competition, just when its in a situation that can not be objectively judged. Nor do I mean to discredit the value of your work if you have had some success in competitions..

I just find the idea of judging performances of 2 different completely different artistic works against each other to be a little bit insane.

it'd be like having a group of people play soccer, by themselves, and another group play basketball by themselves and then declaring a winner afterwards..   I'll accept that you can make a subjective judgement of who was better generally..  but having a firm objective judgement is often going to be exceedingly difficult and be subject to heavy debate.

[littletune]

littletune, this probably has been said before but it won't hurt to reiterate: you are far wiser than your age.   

Thank you Quantum!  

I totally understand what you all mean. I think there should be no age limit on major adult piano competitions. Though, I was just saying, I usually compete in children's piano competitions, and if all age limits were dropped on those, and suddenly I was competing against more experienced, say... 25 year old pianists and what not, I would be a slight bit irked.

But what if that 25 year old would only be learning piano for a year or something? 
I mean I started learning piano kinda late (only two years ago) and most kids start learning at 6 or 7... so of course when they're 13 they play way better than me... but I probably wouldn't be allowed to be in a competition with 8 or 9 year olds who have been learning piano as long as I have...  I don't know... and it's not that I would really wish to be in a competition cause I get too nervous anyway  just...

[pianowolfi]

After all you can maybe only compete with yourself anyway.

[ajspiano]

After all you can maybe only compete with yourself anyway.

^this..

also..

and it's not that I would really wish to be in a competition cause I get too nervous anyway 

when I played in competitions as a kid (younger than you) I remember being so nervous that my hands would shake to the point of being unable to strike a key accurately, and sweating so much that I would slip all over the keys..

practicing performance makes you better at performing though..  now i feel no nerves at all.. even if i make mistakes - i just make the audience believe that i meant them.

[williampiano]

But what if that 25 year old would only be learning piano for a year or something? 
I mean I started learning piano kinda late (only two years ago) and most kids start learning at 6 or 7... so of course when they're 13 they play way better than me... but I probably wouldn't be allowed to be in a competition with 8 or 9 year olds who have been learning piano as long as I have...  I don't know... and it's not that I would really wish to be in a competition cause I get too nervous anyway  just...

I was just saying, if there were no competitions for strictly just children, then it would be kind of a bummer for kids that are say... 7-11 years old, that would like to compete in something. I mean, it would be kind of bad if in all competitions, a 10 year old piano player had to worry about competing against a 30 year pianist who may possibly have 15 years of experience already. That's why I think it is a good idea for children to have competitions available where they can compete against other players that are around their own age only.
Also, for adult beginners, I'm not necessarily sure, but I imagine there are some comps. for beginners of all ages.

[jesc]

Everyone assumes some sort of a constant: "A rule applying to all."

What if we take that away? No rules applying to all competitions?

Therefore, we can have competitions that have age limits which would be a stepping stone to those who are new. Also, we can have competitions that don't have age limits for those who think they can tackle the big guys/gals at their young age.

Two types of competitions operating on different basic rules. Why not enable the possibility to have both?

Heck, if you know someone (powerful) who can finance a high level competition that will have rules that suits your taste why not give it a go?

[Bob]

What's the deal?  Did you age out of a competition m1469?

I thought there were amateur competitions, open to any age.  Are most competitions restricted to "below 25 years" or something like that?

[birba]

When I was making the rounds of the competitions a few years ago (ahem!) I noticed there were those who actually got a thrill out of the competition scen and it even made them play better.  Jeffrey Swann was one of those.  I met guys who toured the world from one competition to the next, winning 3rd and 4th prizes, maybe none, but making a living out of it.  It was depressing.

[49410enrique]

What's the deal?  Did you age out of a competition m1469?

I thought there were amateur competitions, open to any age.  Are most competitions restricted to "below 25 years" or something like that?

pretty much all the competitions i've read about are very specific about upper age limits/birth years, yeah i've yet to see a compitition open to anyone (i suppose there might be acouple but they seem rare) above that 25-31 years of age range, yeah except for a few of the 'amateur' ones, even then, those sometimes exclude anyone that studied music in college even they are are an amateur so if you're say a real estate agent or a physician and your undergrand degree was a piano degree, you can't play with those kids.  i think they're trying to be fair but it seems like a lose lose either way

oh i almost forgot i have seen similar age restrictions on the back end of amateuar competitions that is i have seen them excluding younger artists, again this seems stupid but the van cliburn one for example has a starting age of 35, so apparently you can't be a young amateur, and of course now you're too old for many standard ones, you're too young for amateuar ones, and if you studed piano in college but piano remains an avocation, you're just plain $I-I1t out of luck

[rmbarbosa]

Well, once I saw in youtube a very old pianist giving a recital. He used black gloves without fingers because with his age he felt cold. And he played very simple pieces also because he was very old. I dont remember his name... but it was a spectacle of human decay. I fear that this very old pianist also would compete if there wasnt age limits, dear m1469 ...

[littletune]

^this..

also..
when I played in competitions as a kid (younger than you) I remember being so nervous that my hands would shake to the point of being unable to strike a key accurately, and sweating so much that I would slip all over the keys..

practicing performance makes you better at performing though..  now i feel no nerves at all.. even if i make mistakes - i just make the audience believe that i meant them.

My hands are always shaking a lot too! and I always make stupid mistakes cause my hands don't want to work like they should!

I was just saying, if there were no competitions for strictly just children, then it would be kind of a bummer for kids that are say... 7-11 years old, that would like to compete in something. I mean, it would be kind of bad if in all competitions, a 10 year old piano player had to worry about competing against a 30 year pianist who may possibly have 15 years of experience already. That's why I think it is a good idea for children to have competitions available where they can compete against other players that are around their own age only.
Also, for adult beginners, I'm not necessarily sure, but I imagine there are some comps. for beginners of all ages.

Yes I know I think there should be competitions just for kids of course! But I just think that also older people (or older kids who started learning later) should get the same chance as those who start learning early.

[49410enrique]

tell you what though, the good thing about all of this is that i would never be in a position where i was up against this:

or this
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or this

there's so many! these little ones would wipe the floor with me, i mean talk about making you look bad, i'd hear that right before and just leave with my head down, no that's alright you guys can skip me, i'm good...

[williampiano]

I mean I started learning piano kinda late (only two years ago) and most kids start learning at 6 or 7... so of course when they're 13 they play way better than me... but I probably wouldn't be allowed to be in a competition with 8 or 9 year olds who have been learning piano as long as I have... 

But I just think that also older people (or older kids who started learning later) should get the same chance as those who start learning early.

I do agree with you, and there are some festivals like that, where beginners of all ages can compete against each other.
----------------------------------

tell you what though, the good thing about all of this is that i would never be in a position where i was up against this:

or this
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or this

there's so many! these little ones would wipe the floor with me, i mean talk about making you look bad, i'd hear that right before and just leave with my head down, no that's alright you guys can skip me, i'm good...

I can only pray that I never have to compete with any of them! 

[jesc]

What's the deal?  Did you age out of a competition m1469?

I thought there were amateur competitions, open to any age.  Are most competitions restricted to "below 25 years" or something like that?

IMO m1469's issues are more philosophical than that. However due to my... ehm, inexperience with this forum as a relatively "new" comer, I'll yield to people who really knew her for a long time.

However, after viewing the videos above I'll have to echo Bob's sentiment...

"What's the deal?"

Can someone (20+ years old) who's been in international competitions all over the world post here and say they're threatened by them? Forget the competitions, I mean, even someone who just graduated with a degree in music specializing in piano.

Another thing, I think most people are easily blinded with a "child" playing such pieces. Remember, in competitions with a higher age bracket, you're most likely competing with adults who were prodigies when they were children (like the ones posted above).

There's no avoiding the fact, you'll be running against these in all walks of life and you can't hide from them.

[m1469]

It can be easy to fall into the trap of feeling intimidated by others, especially if something about them hits on specific insecurities of our own.  In the case with child prodigies, what I see is that there is A LOT of living to do yet with each one, and in fact, probably many of them don't end up continuing to pursue music and piano ... sure, maybe partly because the competition is stiff, but maybe partly because for a long time they didn't realize there was competition for them in the world, and then, BAM, when things change, the motivation isn't the same.  Or maybe they just realize they don't actually love it or want to pursue it past what they've already done.  I don't really know!  But, I think about my role models and in my eyes, they are certainly not eclipsed by any child prodigy, especially not just because of the fact of child prodiginess - I appreciate my role models for *exactly* who and what they are, exactly what their path has been, and exactly what I hear in their music as Artists.  So, to me that means it's not just about age.  If it's just about age, child prodigies would by default eclipse mature artists, but they don't.  

There are child prodigies and "Youth" oriented musicians, they are nicely represented and cared for and rooted for in the world.  There are mature artists; they are nicely represented and cared for.  There are "amateurs" who are becoming nicely represented and cared for.  There are college students.  But there are others, too, who are not represented.  I would just like to see a broader spectrum being acknowledged, some imagination that there could *possibly* be more than, or something different than, what's always and already been - and to give those talented, intelligent, musical individuals who somehow fall through the cracks or don't fit into some precise category that already exists, something to aim for and the sense that music isn't actually as close-minded an artistic endeavor as the profession can make it seem.  That's all .

[49410enrique]

However, after viewing the videos above I'll have to echo Bob's sentiment...

"What's the deal?"

Can someone (20+ years old) who's been in international competitions all over the world post here and say they're threatened by them? Forget the competitions, I mean, even someone who just graduated with a degree in music specializing in piano.

 

you made some very good points. really.

i think my comment and videos which were meant more in good fun and geunine admiration for those little ones (they're so cute with their little legs on their pedal booters!), i think i got taken literally where i certainly didn't mean to, i forget things like tone don't come across very well over the internet, nonetheless your response was quite good and the thread is better for it, my responses are boderline rubbished even on my best days when i accidently say something correct

[jesc]

you made some very good points. really.

i think my comment and videos which were meant more in good fun and geunine admiration for those little ones (they're so cute with their little legs on their pedal booters!), i think i got taken literally where i certainly didn't mean to, i forget things like tone don't come across very well over the internet, nonetheless your response was quite good and the thread is better for it, my responses are boderline rubbished even on my best days when i accidently say something correct

Well if were going for cuteness here's one I find cute. Especially near the end when you can see her bouncing off the seat (sometimes needing the extra weight).

[birba]

That was pure joy to watch.  Because she played with pure joy.   

[m1469]

That was pure joy to watch.  Because she played with pure joy.  

As adults, we enjoy and appreciate this, and are capable of enjoying and appreciating this, because those qualities are actually present within us.  It awakens and speaks to us on a deeper level, to whatever degree, as another facet of who we are purely capable of being - even if only in moments - as man.  

[ahinton]

Well if were going for cuteness here's one I find cute. Especially near the end when you can see her bouncing off the seat (sometimes needing the extra weight).

"Cute"? Not to me. Perhaps I'm being somewhat insensitive. But pretty impressive, for all that - and this is surely what matters.

Best,

Alistair

[birba]

As adults, we enjoy and appreciate this, and are capable of enjoying and appreciating this, because those qualities are actually present within us.  It awakens and speaks to us on a deeper level, to whatever degree, as another facet of who we are purely capable of being - even if only in moments - as man.  

You lost me there...

[ajspiano]

I gather thatm1469is commenting on the fact that as adults we can see and appreciate joy in another person, particularly in a child without having to be actively in the experience ourselves.

Children live more in the moment, they don't stop and reflect on their experience or anyone elses the way adults sometimes do.

but then I got kind of lost at the end of the post too..

[jesc]

"Cute"? Not to me. Perhaps I'm being somewhat insensitive. But pretty impressive, for all that - and this is surely what matters.

Best,

Alistair

If we're throwing sensitivity off the window, that performance was subpar. She knows it. That's why she uploaded a new video.

Back to OP topic of age limit:

Call it coincidence, but this clearly illustrates part of a child pianist growing up and maturing (or gaining experience, in reference to some of the posts above). That's two years IIRC... two years gap between performances. The piece is growing up with her.

Now here's a thought:
Imagine a competition with her older self competing with her younger self. Listen to the two videos, it's quite evident now that the younger version would get slaughtered. Now imagine further, she's 25+ years old against that younger version.

Sorry about going on this again. It seems like a perfect illustration.

[m1469]

You lost me there...

Then apparently it was intended for somebody else.

[m1469]

An interesting and pertinent (to everybody else's "discussion"  ) article I just read (what I've quoted below, in this post, is about instrumentalists):

(posted at "Operation Opera" titled:  About those child opera singers: here's the deal)
https://dropera.blogspot.com/2012/01/about-those-child-opera-singers-heres.html

"About those child opera singers: here's the deal
I'm going to let all you music-lovers in on a little secret:  we professional musicians don't have much use for the phenomenon of the Child Prodigy.  Six year old violinists playing Mendelssohn; ten year old pianists playing Rachmaninov; and especially *shudder* twelve year old girls belting out operatic arias... or country music... or whatever... on national television?  Yeah, it's impressive.  Sort of.  You can keep 'em; I have no interest, especially when it comes to the miniature singers.

You know that NPR program "From The Top", featuring adolescent or pre-adolescent performers stunning us with their "maturity" and precocity?

I am not a devotee of that program.

If you are, that's swell for you.  Enjoy. But most professionals in the classical music arena look askance at pint-sized virtuosi.  So many reasons...

For one thing, the great majority of child performers will eventually crash and burn attempting to make the transition from intuitive tot to analytical adult.  There was once a centipede who was asked, "When you walk, in what order do you move your many legs?"  The poor bastard had never thought about that, and became so self-conscious he never walked again.  This syndrome is the norm for talented kiddies.  Child pianists memorize intuitively, by ear; adult professionals memorize in the framework of an analytical system.  Children who have been learning complicated masterworks without really knowing how they were doing it can fall into a similar state of paralysis.

Furthermore, that "unusual musical maturity" you think you detect in the oh-so-polished phrasing of a Chopin Nocturne or Paganini Etude is not organic maturity at all.  It's apery; it's mimicry; it's the result of carefully imitating some adult's interpretation, be it from the teacher or some recording.  Musical compositions which express profound insights about love, loss and life are beyond the ken of a nine year old and that's just how it is.  Having a good ear is not the same thing as musical insight.

Another problem relating to emerging from the prodigy stage:  child stars become accustomed to being the most successful performer wherever they are.  They win the competitions; they receive the adulation; they are Number One, baby!  They are able to play difficult compositions eighty percent perfectly with little effort.  That in itself poses a problem: when such young musicians go on to major in their instrument at the college or conservatory level, they are too often content to continue achieving 80% perfection with 40% effort.  It's not unusual that they find, to their bewilderment, that they are surpasssed by less gifted students who achieve 95% perfection with 110% effort.  It's the old Hare-vs-Tortoise story applied to the piano.  A few of you may remember a child prodigy of some twenty years ago, a Greek pianist named Dmitri Sgouros.  He made a sensation performing on the "Tonight Show" and playing the Third Piano Concerto of Rachmaninov at age ten or eleven.  My wife knew one of his teachers in America and was privy to the following anecdote:  At age eleven, Sgouros played through the Brahms Piano Sonata in F Minor, a five-movement beast to play, at sight.  He then played through it a second time and pronounced the piece memorized and ready for performance.  Wow!  Gee!  Gasp!  Why, he's another Franz Liszt!

It's now 2012 and Dmitri Sgouros is a musician in his thirties.  Is he the greatest living pianist?  Does he perform to sold-out houses in New York, Chicago and L.A.?  Will he go down in history?  And was his performance of the Brahms F Minor Sonata a performance for the ages?

No, no, no and no.  He's got a website; plays in Greece and so forth--that's nice, I suppose.  See, the reality is that for every Yehudi Menuhin (prodigy who became an all-time great artist), there are one hundred Dmitri Sgouros's whose bright flame dims with age.  (I know that statistic is accurate because I just made it up.)

But as much disdain and eye-rolling weariness as I feel for instrumental prodigies (and I've actually taught a few in my teaching career), it's nothing compared to the scorn I feel for Children Who Sing Opera." (...)

[birba]

.

Then apparently it was intended for somebody else.

Funny.  Being a forum for discussion, I was actually expecting you to elucidate on what you said.  Instead, I get a snide remark.

[pianowolfi]

After all, I think it would be a good thing if there were no more age limits in musical competitions. There could be several age groups like in sports.

[littletune]

Oh m1469 and Birba please don't argue!!!  Cause you're both soooooo cool! 

Birba I don't think m1469 meant anything bad with what she said! I think it's more like... you know just like things in life... you understand them or notice them when you're supposed to or when you need to... and if you don't need to then you don't understand them...  ...and it's not even possible to explain those things... cause it's just not... And I don't always understand everything she says either but some things I do understand even when other people don't cause it's just like my mind sometimes works in the same ways as her mind... so I just get it and when it doesn't I don't...

[birba]

Cool it!  Nothing has happened!   

[m1469]

I agree with Littletune.  If the points I've personally brought up in several posts would like to be taken up by somebody as pertinent to the original topic, then as this is indeed a discussion board, I of course do continue to invite discussion regarding what I've posted about, originally and otherwise.  

[m1469]

Here's what seems like a realistic observation of the times, to me:

mid-thirties to 50's and up, are *really* the point in which "we" want to start paying close attention to musicians in general, including pianists.  Perhaps I think this almost solely because of patterns that exist as a wave in how things have gone, but it just seems that's the age-range where, generally, people seriously start to become artists.  In a time where we feel kind of luxuriant in our choices of who to listen to, if we are really looking for, say, performances/recordings for the ages, it's going to generally happen later, almost no matter what kind of technical accomplishments have been made before that point.  Even mid-thirties seems quite on the young side for somebody to truly, artistically express something that, say, a 50-100+ year old might gain life-insight from and feel they deeply need as listening material in their lives (that would actually be quite a feat).  I mean, as an example, it would be like for me to express something within the next few years that somebody like my own role-models would turn to deeply for a kind of experience they might musically, emotionally, spiritually need, in that way, at that time.  How many pianists do you truly feel that way about?  I feel that way about my role models AND, I feel the sky is the limit in terms of what kinds of expressions they may give to the world as we all progress through the years.  

I find it curious that it's precisely at this point where "professional" competitions decide they've already got enough to choose from in the younger players.  I actually really just don't understand this, considering various aspects of it all.

Personally, I feel I have more than one piece to play in my life, and probably a bit to sing and compose, but if I had to choose between being a pianist or musician who plays loads of OK and borderline meaningful renditions of stuff that hoards of other people also play well, OR being a pianist who accomplishes a single masterpiece in a way that the music world (and the people within it) truly wouldn't be the same without, despite the clamoring thoughts that say I should want this or that, I think in the end I'd prefer to be the latter.  What strikes me is that it seems like nobody knows how a person really gets there, AND, I feel there is little within the broadly "professional" -oriented philosophy that truly supports that kind of ... thinking - it seems, but perhaps I'm wrong.