Free Video Lessons

[ajspiano]

Hi All,

Recently I've been thinking a lot about the quality of my teaching and how to improve my explanations regarding a variety of topics.

For some time I've also thought that video/internet based lessons have a lot of problems and that it would always be difficult to get points across successfully using this medium. Consequently, having made a couple recently I discovered that the mediums limitations force me to focus and refine explanations and demonstrations, and I think this likely dramatically improves my teaching skills.

So...

In an endevour to become a better teacher I would like to make some videos, and receive some feedback on the quality of the content. Rather than just make something and hope it helps someone out there in the ether I think it would be better to have some specific problems to deal with and present solutions to real people.

What I need from you:
Suggestions for topics - ideally I'm looking for something small and specific that presents a particular problem to you. It needs to be small (1-2 bars) because my response will likely be detailed enough to knock your socks off.

If the notation for the piece is not available on piano street, a pdf of the notation, or a link to it will be of great help to me.

...................................

If you would like to look at an example of a video I've previously made, there are 2 in other threads floating around at the moment..

You can take a look here for one about the Fantasie Impromtu:

(this video, came with some written explanation also, please take a look at the "fantasie impromptu project" thread, page 4, if you would like to read this)

...................................

If there is interest in this I will try to get a new video up every 1-2 weeks over the next little while.

Look forward to hearing from anyone..
AJ.

[candlelightpiano]

Count me in! I have LOADS of problems so can't tell you about any specific ones! But I'll be watching out for your videos! Thanks.

[costicina]

What a great idea, AJ, and so generous!
Count on me, too. As limited as a “virtual” lesson can be, the tutorial videos you and Birba made for us have proven to be a precious help, a mine of useful suggestions one can apply in general, non only to a specific piece.

If you dont’ mind, I’ll start immediatly, submitting you a problem I’m vainly struggling with. Before giving up, I’ll size the chance you are so generously giving us.. (I hope you cand understand my awful English).

The piece is Prokofiev’s Suggestion diabolique. The section that is driving me crazy is the one after the introduction (bb. 27-51), with the fast repeated  chords and the theme switching between LH and RH.
 
If I’ll be able to understand the right finger/hand/wrist motion  for the first 4 bars, I think I have the key for the rest (but bb. 46-50 are a hell of their own).

First of all, there is no “staccato” mark, but the sound should be dry and light: how to play the theme? A "loose" legato, in order to avoid pedalling?  And above all, how avoid tension and gain accuracy and speed?  

2) What is the best fingering for the chords (considering that I’ve small hands)?
My score gives the following fingering for the chords in bars 27- 28: 542, 532, 421, but the leap from D (5) to the next chord (421) , which is supposed to be “legato”, is troublesome for me.
 Sorry if I dont’ allegate a score (you can download it for free from IMSLP site).

I hope you won't regret your proposal after my post  

I’ll understand if you won’t answer to my  questions. I’ll be  grateful to you nonetheless, and I’m sure I’ll benefit from all the suggestions you’ll give to other forumeers.

I whish you all the best
Margherita

Thank you again
Margherita

[costicina]

Hi, AJ,
 This is a link of  one of my favorite performance of Suggestion Diabolique...

  Cheers

[ajspiano]

Hi, AJ,
 This is a link of  one of my favorite performance of Suggestion Diabolique...

  Cheers

I took a look at the score and some videos last night, it certainly has a diabolical sound to it. I assume your trouble is in getting repeated chords up to speed, not so much the melody? Fingering you suggested is the one that I naturally went to (roughly) and there's a reason for that but I assume that it feels fairly stretched for you?

Seems like it presents a few good topics for discussion so thanks for your suggestion, will see if anyone else posts over the next few days but i guess for now your the front runner.

AJ

[costicina]

Thank you, AJ!
As strange as it can seem, this first part is one of the more difficult. The melody too, even if they are only 7 notes, is not easy to play with the repeated chords without losing control and rythm...
The more "show off" following sections are less scaring as they appear (I'm not saying that they are easy: big leaps, fast runnings, etc.).
At first I thought the main problem for me were the nineths (I can't reach most of tem), but rolling them very quickly, playing the bass note as a sort o grace note, could be a reasonable solution.

I'm in love with this piece, if you are willing to help me, I'll be forever grateful to you!!!!!

Margherita

[unholeee]

prelude in b rachmaninoff

the repeated and ascending chords, on the 2nd page.  how can you voice them, and by what means / techniques / wrist / arm / pedaling. Especially maybe these ones when there is the > sign on them but has the same but some less notes in the chord.  (omg what is that g doing there in that last triplet too - how?!)



this one here too, when the clef chord comes in and is too big to play, do you roll all the notes one at a time? does the treble come in on the first note of the rolled chord? can you play the rolled chord as one note then block the other 2? where should the pedal be released in these parts too



sorry if my questions doesn't make a lot of sense, i probably shouldn't be playing this, but you offered =))

[ajspiano]

Thankyou for posting unholeee, I like you suggestion as it involves a lot of chords - this is great because it means both the diabolic suggestion and this rach piece will benifit from a discussion on chord technique.

the repeated and ascending chords, on the 2nd page.  how can you voice them, and by what means / techniques / wrist / arm / pedaling.

can you specify a bar number - do you mean the ascending chords between bars 18 to 21? (this is not the section in the image obviously.

Especially maybe these ones when there is the > sign on them but has the same but some less notes in the chord.  (omg what is that g doing there in that last triplet too - how?!)

do you feel uncomfortable playing them as an isolated chord, or the bar as a whole? I mean, is the chord hard to play, or is it hard to get to the chord from the previous chords? What fingering are you currently using?

When you mention the G in the last triplet, are you referring to the crotchet in the RH?

this one here too, when the clef chord comes in and is too big to play, do you roll all the notes one at a time? does the treble come in on the first note of the rolled chord? can you play the rolled chord as one note then block the other 2? where should the pedal be released in these parts too

can you please clarify what you mean by 'clef chord' - do you mean the EBG in the left hand? is this hard to reach? is there any problem with the RH in the rest of this bar..  please be very specific.

[unholeee]

no, thank you for the reply.

do you feel uncomfortable playing them as an isolated chord, or the bar as a whole? I mean, is the chord hard to play, or is it hard to get to the chord from the previous chords? What fingering are you currently using?

When you mention the G in the last triplet, are you referring to the crotchet in the RH?

Playing the chords is ok - the lower ones are ok because they are different. But for instance the one in red,  it's hard to hear the chord over the other ones - so should specific notes be louder / softer. In this one i've got the (1 note) E in the left hand. And the (3 notes) B E B in the right. Which is the same with most when they come along, should they be played another way maybe ie 2 notes each hand?

And yes the crotchet G how would that be played or attempted to be played. I realise it's not written on the chord, so just a guess in relation to timing?

can you specify a bar number - do you mean the ascending chords between bars 18 to 21? (this is not the section in the image obviously.

ah i meant ascending as in just generally, sorry! my use of terminology isnt very good. Bar 23 onwards i think.

can you please clarify what you mean by 'clef chord' - do you mean the EBG in the left hand? is this hard to reach? is there any problem with the RH in the rest of this bar..  please be very specific.

No problems with the right hand, just wondering when it is ok to come in if I can't reach the whole E B G chord correct, so timing wise. And the rolled chord question was just in general what ways are there to play it. How would you play it if you could only reach C# F A in the right hand, and cant reach EBG  all at once, so how would you play it - would suffice.

And with the RH where should the pedal be lifted / set down to keep the sound with just the treble part (that spans a couple bars).

[candlelightpiano]

Hi, AJ,
 This is a link of  one of my favorite performance of Suggestion Diabolique...

  Cheers

I enjoyed that very much, including the end where she nearly fell off the piano!! Thanks! You must be very good to play this piece.

[costicina]

I'm not good at all     

...but I'd sell my soul to the devil to play this piece       

[ajspiano]

looks as if you are probably both in luck.. apparently no one else has any difficulties or they think I'm not qualified (equally possible)

I will do these 2 first, regardless of any further replies, though I am unsure of how soon they will be completed, just depends on when i get a free evening.

unholee:
the notes you highlighted red -
see it says m.g. ?

that stands for main gauche. - means left hand.
likewise, m.d. - main droite(or destra i think, which is just italian vs french) - means right hand

these are littered allover you score no doubt.

[candlelightpiano]

I'm not good at all     

...but I'd sell my soul to the devil to play this piece       

Oh, don't say that! You've got to be a lot better than me! Can I watch a video of you? After all, you've seen several of mine.

[candlelightpiano]

AJ: Can I be in line for the 3rd video to demonstrate what you said on my thread? Thank you.

[ajspiano]

Oh, don't say that! You've got to be a lot better than me! Can I watch a video of you? After all, you've seen several of mine.

Good call..  If we can see a video of your playing I can perhaps better focus on what you need rather than generalising..

................

yes choo, i'll put you next..  Its really good actually, you're confusion over my video highlights the need for certain points to be made clearer, which is exactly what I am hoping to gain through this exercise.

[costicina]

Hi, AJ, Choo choo,
here are the last two pieces I’v learned.

 

I'm polishing the Revolutionary, too; I’ll try to record it and to post it today, as bad as it is so far.

I hope you won’t conclude that I’m definitely NOT ready for my beloved Prokofiev!!!!
Thank you!
Margherita

[costicina]

Here is my Revolutionary;

I recorded it in a hurry, so I flubbed it up, but at least you can have a better idea of my level. As soon as I’ll have a decent performance, I’ll post it….
Margherita

[candlelightpiano]

Hi, AJ, Choo choo,
here are the last two pieces I’v learned.

 

I'm polishing the Revolutionary, too; I’ll try to record it and to post it today, as bad as it is so far.

I hope you won’t conclude that I’m definitely NOT ready for my beloved Prokofiev!!!!
Thank you!
Margherita

You play so beautifully! And your daughter, too! Are you taking lessons? How long have you been playing? I wish I could play half as well as you do!

[candlelightpiano]

Here is my Revolutionary;

I recorded it in a hurry, so I flubbed it up, but at least you can have a better idea of my level. As soon as I’ll have a decent performance, I’ll post it….
Margherita

You're VERY good! I enjoyed that very much. I know I wouldn't be able to play this piece for many years! How long have you been working on it? With a teacher or alone?

[costicina]

Too kind of you, Choo choo!!

I had piano lesson for about 7-8 years in my youth , but with awful teachers. I re-started three years ago from scratch, and decided to introduce my daughter into piano playing, at first with a "qualified" teacher, but she was worst than the ones I had in the past, so I decided to be myself her teacher. This forum, Fink's book and video, and other resources have been very helpful. When I quitted the Revolutionary was an impossible dream, now I can play it, more or less, and this is a big achievement for me. 

I hope my story can encourage you: strong will, passion,determination, perserverance and hard work can do wonders. You are on the right path. I'm sure that in few months you'll be surprised by your progresses. Hold on, please, you have all the qualities to succeed!!!

Margherita

[candlelightpiano]

Thank you, Margherita! I had terrible teachers too and you can see how it has affected my playing. Then, I had a 19 year absence from classical piano before I decided to suddenly learn the Fantasie Impromptu - wonderful, isn't it - so I was very rusty to begin with, forgot everything I had ever learned, not that I had learned much! and now here I am, a bit better than I was 6 weeks ago, but a long ways to go.

Can you tell me more about Fink's book and video? I've never heard of it.

How long did it take you to learn the Revolutionary? Hopefully, I'll be able to play as well as you in 3 years time (since you mentioned starting again 3 years ago from scratch).

I'm inspired by you. I'll follow your progress. Your daughter plays beautifully. You're a very good teacher.

[costicina]

You're so nice, Choo Choo!!      
The book is: Seymour Fink, Mastering piano techinque; the attached video is indispensable. If you have not done it yet, please read ALL the posts of Bernhard, the God of piano teaching. I've learned more from him than from years of dispendious private lessons.
As for the Revolutionary, I tackled it a couple of years ago, but could not play it without tension and fatigue. Te videos AJ and Birba made for Kyle have helped me a lot to re-learn it in the proper way. In a couple of weeks I'm able to play it -- not well, alas!   -- but at least 10 times in a row effortless.
Paying  attention to the right motion of fingers/wrist/arm, the whole body is ESSENTIAL. If you keep on practicing in this way, one day, suddenly, you'll discover that you can play effortless the passages that at first seemed impossible to master.
How you practice is more important than how much you practice. You must be fully concentrated, you must feel mind and body as a seameless unity, and never play mechanically. Various sessions of 20 minutes, focussed on a specific problem are a very good method.
You are very musical, and intelligent...I'm sincerely sure you'll be able to master the FI sooner than you think. And then, you'll be ready for the Revolutionary.
If you decide to tackle this Etude, I'll do my best to help you as I can, drawing to my experiences.

I whish you all the best (and sorry for this long post in my horrible English  
Margherita

[candlelightpiano]

Thank you, Margherita! I just ordered Fink's book from Amazon. Looking forward to receiving it. I'm not sure that it comes with a video. I hope it does.

One problem with me (and I have many problems!) is my lack of concentration. Cant' concentrate on anything. Maybe I'm suffering from ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) and don't even know it.

Your English is very good.

How do I find Barnhard's posts?

[costicina]

At least, you can understand me!!!

Concentration is difficult to achieve and tiresome for everybody, believe me!!! Th'at's why the practice sessions can' t' be too long.

To find Bernhard posts, click the "search" button and try to launch "practice".  Among the other posts there will be surely one or more of Bernhard. Click his name, and choose the option "show the latest posts of this member", and go back to the first one onwards. You'll find a mine of precious suggestions, and not only in the piano playing field: he will open your mind, is a "maestro" in the true meaning of the word.

I hope your Fink's book will arrive with the video (Bernhard recommended it, and he was soo right!!). Another useful book is Gyorgy Sandor,  On piano playing. You can read also Chang's book,  Fundamental of piano practice (you can find it online for free): you'll find there many helpful advices about practicing, memorizing, etc.
One last suggestion: if you want to improve your sight reading (mine is awful   ), the best book (also recommenden by Bernhard), is Howard Richman, Super-sight reading secrets. You have to follow to the letter, step by step, without skipping any passage, his instructions. They do work!!!

Hope this help

Margherita

[ajspiano]

+1 for seymour fink - video is not an option though, you need it or you'll have trouble understanding.

Bernhard too is obviously full of great info.

Looks like I will be able to work on a video Friday night, will talk about diabolic suggestion repeated chords bar 27.

[ajspiano]

Here is my Revolutionary;

Chords looked a little stiff? Do you tense up if you play them faster? You should be able to play the RH faster than final chopins tempo without too much difficulty if your motions are correct.

LH looks like your turning your wrist left and right reapeatedy to accommodate the speed and distance over the keys? Is that what's happening? That would probably be uncomfortable but I can't really tell with the video shot from the right?

[costicina]

Thank you, AJ!!!
Yes, RH needs more work, I don't know why but I tend to tense up playng the fast octaves in the last section. As for LH: maybe I use too much my wrist, even if I try to "toss" ( I don't know if it's the right word to describe the motion in question) the whole hand to reach the notes, instead of using only the fingers. I don't feel tension or fatigue, as I did before. But of course, as I said, the piece needs still to be polished; and I'm aware it's too slow.  I hope to post soon a better version, keeping in mind your remarks.

You are  very kind and big-hearted...I'm very grateful!!!
I whish you all the best

Margherita

[candlelightpiano]

At least, you can understand me!!!

Concentration is difficult to achieve and tiresome for everybody, believe me!!! Th'at's why the practice sessions can' t' be too long.

To find Bernhard posts, click the "search" button and try to launch "practice".  Among the other posts there will be surely one or more of Bernhard. Click his name, and choose the option "show the latest posts of this member", and go back to the first one onwards. You'll find a mine of precious suggestions, and not only in the piano playing field: he will open your mind, is a "maestro" in the true meaning of the word.

I hope your Fink's book will arrive with the video (Bernhard recommended it, and he was soo right!!). Another useful book is Gyorgy Sandor,  On piano playing. You can read also Chang's book,  Fundamental of piano practice (you can find it online for free): you'll find there many helpful advices about practicing, memorizing, etc.
One last suggestion: if you want to improve your sight reading (mine is awful   ), the best book (also recommenden by Bernhard), is Howard Richman, Super-sight reading secrets. You have to follow to the letter, step by step, without skipping any passage, his instructions. They do work!!!

Hope this help

Margherita

YOU are a mine of great information, Margherita! Thank you. I'll take a look at those books you mentioned and also look for Barnhard. Actually, Kyle gave me a link to one of his posts and I placed in on my blog so I'll just go there and look for him. Why don't we see Barnhard's name anywhere? I joined in December and I don't think I've seen his name. It looks like he quit Pianostreet.

I forgot to add that practicing 20 mins at a time sounds like a great idea! Of course, I dont'usually practice more than 1 1/2 hours a day anyway but I'll break it up in 20 min segments. Thanks for the great idea.

[costicina]

Yes, Berhard disappeared, leaving a big void     
I think he felt he had said all he had to say in his long, detailled, thoughtful posts, and was a bit sick of answering again and again the same questions. But we have them (the posts, I mean), they are a sort of "Human heritage" for us forumeers 

Ciao!
Margherita

[candlelightpiano]

Was he like Birba, making videos and stuff? Was he a concert pianist, too? There are an amazingly high number of experts on Pianostreet. And most of them are terrific.

[megadodd]

AJ, I have a very specific concern when playing the Brahms Ballade in G minor (op 118).
I could upload a video of me playing it, but I think I can explain it well enough for you to understand, it's just a common thing, I suppose.

In my edition (G. Henle Verlag) bars 26-27 / 102-103 (it repeats) When the first big 3 chords come, I have had problems being relaxed and hitting them accurately, so it has gotten to my mind that "now comes this part, gonna f*** up" and so I do.

I've isolated the problem, it's that I cannot smoothly transition from the chords in the left hand just before the 3 big chords. More importantly, the A-D*3-5* into A-D-F# *1-3-4* (*=fingering).
I've tried different fingerings, but this one is what I feel more "secure" with, and it's easier in tempo, I tend to play it fairly fast.

The last couple of weeks I've worked on that section, litteraly a thousand times. In different rythms, tempos and touch. Relaxing the hand so it's just as lose as jelly does seem to ease it up a little. Though, I'm performing in a few days, and I don't think I can make it a habbit to losen up alot extra when it's supposed to be a big crescendo in time.

[ajspiano]

AJ, I have a very specific concern when playing the Brahms Ballade in G minor (op 118).

Thanks for posting megadodd..

I really love this discussion of problems..  I think people will start to almost iron out issues themselves the more that really think about and identify whats wrong.

At first glance I think it would still be better to see you doing it because there tends to be a multitude of possible reasons for tension. So if you say "i have tension in this passage" I still have no idea whether its in your fingers/hand/wrist/arm etc.

I would encourage anyone else to talk about why they think this kind of thing arises, rather than waiting for and accepting my words as the right ones. Either way I will look at this problem in due course once I've had a go at the others already posted.

Best Wishes
AJ

[costicina]

To Candlelightpiano:
Sure, Birba, Rachfan, AJ and many others are doing a terrific job, helping us in many ways. I'm so grateful to all of them!!!

...Bernhard was unique: somehow mysterious; the only thing we knew about him  is that he teaches(-ed?), with astoungind results, had travelled a lot around the world, was an expert in juggling, skipping and martial arts, philosophy and mathematics. Nobody knows how he plays(-ed?), but I'm sure he was a fine pianist, too idiosyncratic to make a career out of it. Teaching, he said, was his vocation, and the thing he liked the most to do (and what a teacher he was!!). He was brilliant, witty, full of sense of humour and humanity....
He didn't left any videos, but his explanations are carefully detailled and clear enough.

Sorry for this "pean" to Bernhard, but I confess that sometimes I miss him acutely...


Margherita

[ajspiano]

Sorry for this "pean" to Bernhard, but I confess that sometimes I miss him acutely...

..we all do.

I've learnt heaps reading his posts. - there was one on how to teach the first bach invention, blew my mind the amount of detail and thought he had put into it. He was a big advocate for all the referances too..   fink/sandor/taubman/chang etc etc.

[costicina]

But the presence in this forum of members like you, Birba etc. is soothing my nostalgia. Thanks to you, this forum is alive again. And your idea of the video lessons is really a struck of genius: it forces us to identify  where the problem lies, and its causes…the first, essential step to find a solution!!!
I await with trepidation your  video
Thank you again
Margherita

[candlelightpiano]

I await with trepidation your  video

Margherita: You're too funny! I await the video with equal trepidation!

[ajspiano]

This comes from a thread in the audition room, I'm going to post it here as well though so that more people see it.

Please feel free to critique, argue that I'm wrong or provide other ideas yourself..


Hello hello -

hope this helps - Please remember I'm still learning the piece, so my ideas may be flawed and my playing isn't perfect.

PART 1 - fluency in bars 7-8
I've kind of assumed that you know how to break down the elements of this and practice small chunks since you have obviously read a lot of bernhards posts. Point being that if the movement isnt already part of your playing you might have to do small groups of notes before building up the whole phrase.

The RH here is harder to demonstrate in an exaggerated way so my arm got a bit raised, with that in mind don't try to emulate me exactly, just have a go and do what feels comfortable for you.

also, the motion does not have to cause an accent, i'm just using accents to highlight it.

Part 2 - EXCESSIVE MOVEMENT IN CHORDS
I just want to make a note, because having watched the video I notice that my wrist is raised a fair bit when I'm over the keys for the C minor chord. The movements are all larger than they need to be for the particular phrase and you have to play 'down' into the c minor as much as the Ab major. The lift with the raise wrist is just the transition between the chords.

I talk about the lift and the down motion separately, but they must be felt as one fluent motion..  "Up-Down" not "up..  ..down"

Also, that I use the word wrist a lot and that the movement is not a wrist movement. Its controlled by the arm and that results in the wrist position changing..

Part 3 - bar 55
you can take this or leave this, its just a thought..

The whole thing was done in a bit of a rush so please apply with caution and ask questions rather than struggle with not understanding completely. Its all about technicalities too..  don't focus too much there and forget about the dynamics. Technique is always to facilitate musicality.

AJ

[costicina]

Thank you AJ, I'm really greateful for your video (you are really a great teacher...why the hell didn't I find someone like you in my teens?       )

I dound particularly interesting your suggestion about bb. 7-8, that I'm not able to play "seameless" beacuse of the leaps. I'll try the "supination" motion of the hand you suggest. It has proven very useful in other thorny passages for me.

I'll divide the piece in bits, working at them with great attention for the logic of motion, but without hurry. I'm risking to get burned out with dis piece. I'll flank it and the diabolical Prokofiev with op 25 n 1 (Aeolian harp), a nice contrast with them!!!

Thank you again again, AJ, for the time, the patience and the effort you spent to help me; you a real pal. I'll watch many time your video to "absorb" all the inputs.
If I'll have some doubt, I'll let you know.

P.S. I envy your long, elegant fingers!!! My  small hands have always been the bane of my pianistic live!!!

Margherita

[ajspiano]

The forearm supination/pronation movements combined with the forarms lateral motion makes for a very fast and accurate way to cover distances over the keys..  With a bit of practice the distances in these bars should feel tiny. You can traverse multiple octaves like this without ever losing speed or a feeling of legato.

You may be able to think about and apply the same idea in the middle section, I can't think of the bar numbers.. Where the chord progression is Abm Ebm F#m C#m (or their appropriate enharmonic equivalents ) ..it's roughly around bar 30 I think.

[keyboardclass]

If you go to www.youtube.com/isstip you'll find some DVD extracts from my late very dear teacher and friend Carola Grindea on these very topics as well as a BBC Radio 4 interview.

[nyiregyhazi]

While there's some very good advice there, I can't agree with this part.

[/b]
Part 2 - EXCESSIVE MOVEMENT IN CHORDS
I just want to make a note, because having watched the video I notice that my wrist is raised a fair bit when I'm over the keys for the C minor chord. The movements are all larger than they need to be for the particular phrase and you have to play 'down' into the c minor as much as the Ab major. The lift with the raise wrist is just the transition between the chords.

I talk about the lift and the down motion separately, but they must be felt as one fluent motion..  "Up-Down" not "up..  ..down"

Also, that I use the word wrist a lot and that the movement is not a wrist movement. Its controlled by the arm and that results in the wrist position changing..

Up-down is always going to be hard to feel as one motion- especially from short to long in a dotted rhythm. It's far easier to feel just a single up with the arm, but to make it vastly more understated. On the film, she ends up so high that she struggles to get into the A flat major slightly and the voicing suffers. The simplest solution is to start with a low wrist and allow it drift just slightly upwards through the unit. To change direction in such a short space of time is difficult and makes the second chord hard to voice. With a slight drift upwards, the flow of motion is continuous and it's much easier for the fingers to control the tone quality. Although the rhythm is quick, it avoids the necessity of having the momentum of the whole arm plunging suddenly into the keyboard. The momentum of the arm is actually travelling ever so slightly AWAY from the piano- which means that the fingers can act extremely confidently, without fear of either impact or a heavy sound. This allows the kind of piercing yet genuinely quiet piano that you hear from someone like Horowitz or Richter.When the arm goes down it's just one big lump. An up enables the fifth finger to project individually.

In short, I'd conceive the musical units as from short to long and drift up on each. After the repeated Gs, the dotted note gives time to bring the wrist down, so the next unit can be done as a slight upward motion. I'd almost never try to change direction when going from a very short note to a long one and certainly not in this piece. I think the problem on her video is that the up is the side effect of trying to press momentum down into the piano. It's much easier if the up is caused by lightly drifting AWAY from the piano- in order to soften up a very confident action from the hand.

[costicina]

I'm experimenting all possibile patterns of motion, inspired by your kind and useful explanations. I know, it's not easy to describe all this in words. That's why the idea of tutorial videos via Internet is an excellent one, a good surrogate of a "real" teacher; in fact, far better than a real teacher. since not always you  have the luck to find a good one, as I  experienced on my skin       

I feel that I'm in good hands now. I'll try to deserve your efforts to help me!!!
Thank you so much

Margherita

[ajspiano]

Interesting points nyiregyhazi.

After doing a bit of playing on my lap I've come to the following conclusions. I hope I don't confuse anyone here.. 

There are unique musical settings within this piece that call for different motions. The way I currently interpret it the opening is more forceful. In this section where this figure occurs (bar 11-12) I play it with an up-down motion. The up is very small though, and the reason I describe it as a feeling of one motion up and down is because there is forward movement. The change of direction in up-down is going to be felt when it actually is a change of direction. In this setting the slight forward motion makes it a single arc type figure which allows it to be felt as one movement.

Having said that, this was the only section I really looked at before going to explain how to play it. Had I looked at other sections in a bit more detail I'd have found that when it occurs the second time (bars 21-22) I play it with a softer feel. In bars 11-12 I place the Ab at the peak of the dynamic figure - it is accented and so calls for more weight, thus I move down with my arm. In bars 21-22 on the other hand I play it as if the Ab chord is already past the peak and the dynamic is decresc. Here I found that I use the movement EXACTLY as described by nyiregyhazi.

This of course supports my own interpretation of the piece, we each have our own ideas about that.

EDIT:
I've also taken the time to observe lisitsa and Freddy Kempf's video's

i dont really like kempf's interpretation but i think he is clearly using nyiregyhazi's idea at bars 21-22. bars 11-12 are not visible. In later sections (the variation on the theme using triplets) I think he definately moves down with the arm to provide powerful forte sounds. However there is a kind of illusion because the wrist is also higher - I don't think I'll go into raised wrist in chords here though, just that it essentially stops the wrist from 'breaking' and makes sure the weight transfers into the keys..

lisitsa could be doing either in 11-12. Its extremely subtle and I'm still undecided as to what exactly she's doing after watching it at half speed.. I can't see her 21-22 and have not looked at the rest.

EDIT 2:
ok, got through a bit more of lisitsa performance. I think she utilises both movements depending on the context, as I explained that I do. However, its pretty presumptive to suggest that that is absolutely what she's doing - I'm just hypothosizing because her motions are very subtle and hard to be sure about.

In the latter section, it looks to me that as she moves to the Ab chord she comes up then down VERY SLIGHTLY, and that the wrist is in a slightly higher position for the Ab chord than it is for the C minor chord.

I'm watching around the 1:45 to 2:00 mark in her video.

Still..  visual emulation of someone isn't any good unless it feels right for you. That should always be the primary factor i think.

[nyiregyhazi]

There are unique musical settings within this piece that call for different motions. The way I currently interpret it the opening is more forceful. In this section where this figure occurs (bar 11-12) I play it with an up-down motion. The up is very small though, and the reason I describe it as a feeling of one motion up and down is because there is forward movement. The change of direction in up-down is going to be felt when it actually is a change of direction. In this setting the slight forward motion makes it a single arc type figure which allows it to be felt as one movement.

Yeah, I must say that I was convinced by the results of how you did it. I wouldn't personally recommend the concept to most people- basically because most pianists are too much inclined into downwards pressing. However, it looks like there's a slight sliding movement going on that makes it very different from the typical downward jab. I can see that you make it work, but it strikes me as a rather complicated coordination to bring off. It looks to me like you do the slight sense of drifting up when it goes to A natural and on the repeated E flats? I'm just wondering whether it's really necessary to use a different style of movement on this particular one?

i dont really like kempf's interpretation but i think he is clearly using nyiregyhazi's idea at bars 21-22. bars 11-12 are not visible.

I'm not so sure. Kempf's style of producing tone with unsophisticated downward thrusts (producing coarse lumps of percussive and undifferentiated sounds) is exactly the sort of thing that tends to make me favour ups rather than downs. Even on the occasion where his wrist rises, I believe it's part of an action that is designed to produce downward force via arm pressure. The wrist rolls over the top but I think he's still pressing forwards and into the keys. The kind of up I'm thinking of is literally designed to drift the arm's energy AWAY from the piano. It's the most literal kind of an "up"- designed to allow the fingers to extend through the keys without being burdened with any notable weight. This is where it gets very hard to perceive which is which by looking- although there are sometime subtle clues.

I had some very interesting lessons with Alan Fraser just a few days ago, where he was talking a lot about this style of arm motion. Even for the very loudest of passages and for rapid fire octaves, he had me work on removing the sense of downward arm pressure altogether- so the arm either just glides sideways or even drifts lightly away. It's interesting to see just how much tone the hand can produce when it activates effectively and with efficient activity. Holding back the weight is typically associated the apologetic playing of a shy young school girl, but when it's not done stiffly, it helps you to realise how much tone your hand can really produce (and how much more variety of voicing becomes possible, when you are not swinging the arm's momentum into it). I can't overstate how much more easily I can produce tone, after I discovered just how many unnecessary downward arm pressures I was still depending on. The quality of sound I'm making has also become drastically more interesting, with far less sense of the homogenised lumps of sound that Kempf's pounding causes.

[ajspiano]

I can see that you make it work, but it strikes me as a rather complicated coordination to bring off. It looks to me like you do the slight sense of drifting up when it goes to A natural and on the repeated E flats? I'm just wondering whether it's really necessary to use a different style of movement on this particular one?

I'd have to take a closer look at my playing to answer that properly.. and actually compare them on a 'feel' basis not just a visual one, so will save answering this for later..

Kempf's style of producing tone with unsophisticated downward thrusts (producing coarse lumps of percussive and undifferentiated sounds) is exactly the sort of thing that tends to make me favour ups rather than downs.

Exactly why I don't like his performance - he can certainly smash through the notes at quite a pace, but thats the problem, sounds like he's just "smashing" through it. I have to wonder how much pressure he is applying downward with the way his whole body kind of bounces up on accented chords here..

The more I think about your description of an away from the piano motion the more I think it much be extremely subtle. Obviously we can not produce any sound unless some part of the playing apparatus goes down..  and the arm is controlled from a point away from the hand. Tiny arm movements at the control point can result is large effects on the hand and fingers.

I'd love to see a short video of what you mean, if thats at all possible - it would only have to be a few seconds long. I think I am using it myself, i get a feeling of slight feeling of upward lift in the playing of bars 21-22 here but I wonder if its really what you mean since I obviously confuse it a bit with kempfs performance..

Its hard to tell with kempf though because you can really only see his hand, not his arm.

I had some very interesting lessons with Alan Fraser just a few days ago, where he was talking a lot about this style of arm motion. Even for the very loudest of passages and for rapid fire octaves, he had me work on removing the sense of downward arm pressure altogether- so the arm either just glides sideways or even drifts lightly away. It's interesting to see just how much tone the hand can produce when it activates effectively and with efficient activity. Holding back the weight is typically associated the apologetic playing of a shy young school girl, but when it's not done stiffly, it helps you to realise how much tone your hand can really produce (and how much more variety of voicing becomes possible, when you are not swinging the arm's momentum into it). I can't overstate how much more easily I can produce tone, after I discovered just how many unnecessary downward arm pressures I was still depending on. The quality of sound I'm making has also become drastically more interesting, with far less sense of the homogenised lumps of sound that Kempf's pounding causes.

Interesting - Alan fraser is one of the pedagogues I've yet to really look into properly. I've only seen bits of him on youtube and read some of his articles. I've note seen or read anything from craft of piano.

I will say that it is exceedingly rare that I apply deliberate downward force with my arm. Gravity is doing that job just fine. And most of the time if I do it its probably not intentional, just a lack of refinement in my playing. It's a tough one to explain to a student though because they can often be so rigid holding their arm up over the keys which doesn't allow for free flowing movement.. Free fall and deliberate downward force also look EXACTLY the same visually (except at the keybed i guess)..  they feel completely different though.

Getting really technical and into trivial information here - as a free weight my forearm applies around 900g..  almost 4 times what I need to depress 5 keys in a chord.. However, that also assumes zero velocity. Given the rate of accelaration for gravity (9.8m/sec/sec?) even a free drop from a few centimeters above the keys should mean i'm applying a fast and enormously forceful amount of weight to the keys..  I'm not really sure given my lack of physics degree..

But if I was to say, hold 'up' my arm at half the force of gravity, I should still have twice the downward force I need to depress the keys, but it would give a definite feeling of holding up and moving away from the piano...?  obviously this doesnt take into account the resistance of the keys..

Sorry for anyone who just found this WAY TO EXTREME an analysis..  you are right, it is way to extreme, and I certainly wouldn't explain it in this way to a student..

[costicina]

Ehm...      
You are losing me, I'm afraid. I know how difficult is to explain a pattern of movement in words, especially  when it's   so complex and finely nuanced as the ones required in piano playing (If you read Fink's book, all seems extremely complicated; when you see the video, "..and there was light". That's why I was enthusiast when AJ launched the idea of video lessons...His tutorial videos, as Birba's ones, has helped me a lot.... 

[keyboardclass]

Agreed.  These walls of words mean little.

[costicina]

From Gyorgy Sandor, On piano playing:



Maybe this can explay my so discussed LH wrist movement….

[keyboardclass]

I agree wholeheartedly with Sandor though I'd get rid of the first accent (not in my urtext) and add an up/down in the RH:



Here's my video of op 28 no 4 where I exaggerate the drop then flop principle in both hands.  The idea is keep the wrist up throughout the drop until the sound happens then flop.  Most start flopping before the sound which is a waste of energy. 

Here's what not to do:

[ajspiano]

I agree also, but the question is perhaps of how a student interprets it...

What do YOU think it means margherita? Considering the lack of visual at this point..