Help with understanding a chord progression (it has the Dominant go minor?)

[popcornn]

Hi, I wouldn't normally seek an answer to a chord progression however I came across one that was so peculier that I thought I'd try and find the solution.

It comes from the song 'Words, don't come easy'

the chord progression goes:

I   vi   ii   V   v   VI   ii   V  I

My question is: What's going on when the Dominant goes minor and the the sub-mediant goes major? Is the Dominant going minor a pivitol chord of some sort? If you have any ideas I'd be very appreciatve to hear them. Thank you.

[ajspiano]

I should probably think about this a little more before trying to suggest anything.. I'm pretty tiredzz..

If the key is C, i guess it could have modulated to D minor..  Gm and A7 would fit for your progression and make for an easy lead back into the ii V I

What do you think? That's just the first option I thought of..  Kind of hard to pick with out hearing or seeing some the melody over the chords.

[popcornn]

Hummmmm! So the Dominant going minor is the pivital chord in the modulation to the 'Super-Tonic'

It becomes chord iv

Then the Sub-Mediant is the new Dominant chord; that's why it went major. As you can see in the chord progression after the Major 'Sub-Mediant' it does indeed go to chord ii.

Thanks, ajspiano, you might be tirdezz but I think what you said is correct. I guess there are many ways (if you study composition) to modulate to the Super-Tonic.

Does any one know of a good theory book I could use to help me understand chord progression and modulations? I already have Grade 6 music theory so I'd be looking for something a bit more in depth. (perhaps I should post this as a separate topic) Anyway, Thank you ajspiano

[ajspiano]

It's one possibility.. I use it when jazzing about to move to the sub dominant.. It becomes the ii in that case, often followed by the new V, which would be a I7 in the tonic key..

Not sure about a book for you. I just studied scales and made my own observations through playing and listening..

I think the minor supersonic is the only option here assuming the v and VI are connected, but if the VI is a further modulation it could be different - that's why I said it's hard to pick without hearing it or seeing notation.

[49410enrique]

a quick look at it it looks like you temporarily slip into and borrow from the natural minor
i.e. lets use C major, your V is G-B-D, the natural minor uses the subtonic Bb instead of B natural, this will give you your 'minor v' of G-Bb-D, also the implied key siggy uses an Eb and Ab so your submediant being a major VI makes sense here, Ab-C-Eb, this this context it reinforces that we are in a c minorish place for the time being.

the other alternative is similar but we look at it from an Eb major place vs C minor since we don't really see a i, it happens so quickly in your progression we would need more context to call it a true modulation, so my gut says we're just borrowing from the minor for sec.

[ajspiano]

a quick look at it it looks like you temporarily slip into and borrow from the natural minor
i.e. lets use C major, your V is G-B-D, the natural minor uses the subtonic Bb instead of B natural, this will give you your 'minor v' of G-Bb-D, also the implied key siggy uses an Eb and Ab so your submediant being a major VI makes sense here, Ab-C-Eb, this this context it reinforces that we are in a c minorish place for the time being.

the other alternative is similar but we look at it from an Eb major place vs C minor since we don't really see a i, it happens so quickly in your progression we would need more context to call it a true modulation, so my gut says we're just borrowing from the minor for sec.

If this were the case here I think OP would have shown the progression with "bVI" not "VI" - the way it has been shown suggests that the progression is Gminor / Amajor (if the key is C major)

[starstruck5]

The great theorist Joseph Schillinger invented an entire system of harmony - called the Diatonic-Symmetric system of Harmony. 

The basic premise is that you can take any scale - lets say: C Major -C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
: and unlike the Diatonic system where chords are traditionally built strictly according to the scale notes -in its first expansion -ie C -E -G -B -D -F-A -C -The Diatonic Symmetric system means that each note can stand for any chord built from its root.  So for example - a chord built on C could be C major - C7 - C minor - Cm7- -C aug - C9b5 -or whatever you want. Similarly a chord built on the dominant G -could as easily be a minor chord as major.  In this way all the chords could be Minor or Major, depending on the harmonic colours you wished to create.

I think it is a very elegant idea, anyway and very useful for Pop or classical composers.

[ajspiano]

The great theorist Joseph Schillinger invented an entire system of harmony - called the Diatonic-Symmetric system of Harmony. 

The basic premise is that you can take any scale - lets say: C Major -C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
: and unlike the Diatonic system where chords are traditionally built strictly according to the scale notes -in its first expansion -ie C -E -G -B -D -F-A -C -The Diatonic Symmetric system means that each note can stand for any chord built from its root.  So for example - a chord built on C could be C major - C7 - C minor - Cm7- -C aug - C9b5 -or whatever you want. Similarly a chord built on the dominant G -could as easily be a minor chord as major.  In this way all the chords could be Minor or Major, depending on the harmonic colours you wished to create.

I think it is a very elegant idea, anyway and very useful for Pop or classical composers.

This is interesting, and it certainly frees up the mind as far as composition goes. Its easy to get stuck in a key when first learning..

If you are improvising though..  having an understanding of diatonic scales and which chords fit in each key is pretty important, and it is of course very helpful as far as playing by ear to know the notes that form certain progressions and what they sound like in a certain key. The "diatonic symmetric" idea seems like it would be best applied by someone with a good grounding in the basic scale idea first..

[starstruck5]

I completely agree. In fact Schillinger begins with the Diatonic System - so expects a student to be conversant with progressions and cadences constructed from the scale itself. Also being able to modulate easily between different keys is expected.  Modulation in the Diatonic Symmetric system is of course, possible also -but often unecessary!   

[leonbloy]

Hi, I wouldn't normally seek an answer to
the chord progression goes:

I   vi   ii   V   v   VI   ii   V  I

This sequence becomes much simple to understand if the phrases are distinguished - and in pop song with vocals this is usually simple. Here we have:

C   Am   Dm  G
  Gm   A   Dm
       G  C

The first phrase starts with tonic and goes to dominant through a standard progression.
The second one goes towards Dm (ii), its first half does a little modulation by using chords in Dm tonality (Gm and A(7) as dominant and subdominant of Dm). Alternatives similar to Gm, would be Em7(♭5) (E half dimished), or Gm6, or A7/9b or A7/9b/11sus. In this case the choosing of Gm provides the effect of (slightly unexpected, slightly illusory) transition from G.

[cjp_piano]

I think it makes sense to think of it as:

iv V i for the v VI ii

[popcornn]

a quick look at it it looks like you temporarily slip into and borrow from the natural minor
i.e. lets use C major, your V is G-B-D, the natural minor uses the subtonic Bb instead of B natural, this will give you your 'minor v' of G-Bb-D, also the implied key siggy uses an Eb and Ab so your submediant being a major VI makes sense here, Ab-C-Eb, this this context it reinforces that we are in a c minorish place for the time being.

the other alternative is similar but we look at it from an Eb major place vs C minor since we don't really see a i, it happens so quickly in your progression we would need more context to call it a true modulation, so my gut says we're just borrowing from the minor for sec.


There are some interesting ideas here and I would like to thank everyone for their imput.