Is learning 4 bars at a time acceptable?

[larapool]

With regards to my other thread, I mentioned that I would practice certain pieces in chunks of 4 bars, and it seemed to really help me nail a piece I'd otherwise spend ages playing through.  It seemed to work wonders, and now I've memorized the whole piece!

Now, I just started Bach's Prelude in E Minor (#8 from the Little Preludes & Fugues) and like all other Bach pieces it looked very daunting -- for some reason I can play Beethoven and other composers much much easier on the first try than Bach 

But I played through it once with both hands, then sat down and hammered the first four bars over and over until I memorized them, and now it's great fun!  But is 4 bars too little?  What do you advanced pianists do when you get to a full-form sonata that's 3 or 4 movements long?  I'm guessing by that level you're able to practice in greater chunks, and practice entire phrases at a time, but do you still drill a small chunk of measures before you move on to the next?  This seems to be the best way that has worked for me in regards to memorizing pieces, and memorizing seems to be the hardest part, so I thought I'd ask.

My professor's advice has always been to memorize a part, then play it 4 times through without stopping, and without making a single mistake.  If you can play it 4 times through -- especially at full speed - without making a mistake, move on to learning more.  I had one professor tell me to practice 17 or 18 times before moving on... yikes!

[ajspiano]

I think in changs book he suggests 50-100 repetitions for the best "post practice improvement" effect.

in some cases 4 bars may be far too much, perhaps not when memorising, but when ironing out a technique I often isolate an individual beat or 2, or even just the transition between 2 notes on the odd occasion if there's something particularly difficult.

[larapool]

50-100!  Wow!  And yes, I should have clarified -- I am specifically referring to memorization. 

[quantum]

With regard to memorization, I find that gaining an understanding of the music is far more fruitful and efficient than simply repeating physical patterns.  If one understands what one wants to say, one will have a much easier time saying it.

If the process understanding is integrated along with the learning process, one will be surprised how much has already been committed to memory without specifically working on memorization. 

Along with memorization - shall we say "memory input" - is the equally important task of memory recall.  After a certain number of repetitions, one will have committed the music into short term memory and thus be practicing the task of memory recall from the short term buffer.  What we are really after is to commit the music into long term memory.  In order to exercise the long term memory there needs to be a diversion from the mental task and a period of rest between sessions. 

[larapool]

Thank you, quantum, wise words...  Could you elaborate on what you mean by 'understanding' of the music?  I think I understand what you mean to a certain extent -- when I play Beethoven or Chopin, I get a very good feel for the music, I can hear the beauty and emotion within it, and I can express it quite well.  But every Bach piece I play lacks the emotion, the grace of other composers.  Although it's complicated music, it just sounds mechanical to me, therefore it's hard for me to find an 'understanding' in it - as such, drilling the bars over and over until I have the music memorized has been the most efficient way of practice I've found.

I love to play Bach after I have it memorized, but I like hearing elegance and grace in his music, and unfortunately I just don't hear it often, even when I listen to professional pianists play.  I am able to express so much more emotion out of a sonatina than an Invention.  

[ajspiano]

I like quantums point.

As one example, I've been playing chopin op 10 no 12..  I probably have alot easier time memorising the intro for example because I don't see a series of notes, so much as a pattern on a G7 chord.

I think you also need to understand the difference between that kind of mental memory, as opposed to motor or muscle memory..

[larapool]

Oh yes, in fact that helps greatly when I sit down to memorize a piece.  Actually, it works best with Bach, because I tend to see patterns better with him.  For example, at the beginning of this piece, what I saw were E minor and B major arpeggios played between the hands, and octaves on the Es and Bs being played.  As soon as I recognized the chord patterns, I began playing them without looking at the page, and I had the part memorized within a minute or two!

[brogers70]

Sure, 4 bars at a time is acceptable. Whatever works for you is fine. As to understanding Bach. Think about motifs in whatever piece you are working on. Beethoven was famous for the lietmotiv, but Bach could wring more interesting stuff out of a simple idea than anyone. I could not be sure which prelude you are working on, but as an example if you look at the Ab major prelude from Well Tempered Clavier Bk 1, there are a couple of rhythmic motifs that are everywhere, eighth rest, two sixteenths, and four eighths; and sixteenth rest, seven sixteenths and a quarter. When you learn a new Bach piece, try to find the main motif, rhythmic or melodic and look for all of its appearances. Then see how Bach is playing with it by altering the motif slightly or altering the context in which it appears. Doing this may make you enjoy Bach more, and it will certainly help you memorize it more easily.

[mosis]

first of all, is it acceptable to whom? acceptable to us? your teacher? you? who cares?

small section practice is absolutely essential for efficient learning of a piece. 4 bars may be an ideal size for the piece(s) you're learning. if after a while of focused practice you've learned it, then 4 bars is perfect. if you feel it's too little, try a bigger chunk. if you're still struggling after an hour, try a smaller chunk.

i will work on anything from 1 chord to half a piece at a time. it all depends on the piece, the nature of the difficulty, and the stage of mastery. "acceptability" has nothing to do with it; results are all that ultimately matter.

[quantum]

Could you elaborate on what you mean by 'understanding' of the music?  I think I understand what you mean to a certain extent -- when I play Beethoven or Chopin, I get a very good feel for the music, I can hear the beauty and emotion within it, and I can express it quite well.  But every Bach piece I play lacks the emotion, the grace of other composers.  Although it's complicated music, it just sounds mechanical to me, therefore it's hard for me to find an 'understanding' in it - as such, drilling the bars over and over until I have the music memorized has been the most efficient way of practice I've found.

Let's say you had to memorize and recite a passage of spoken language, however you did not understand the language itself.  In such case you would only be working with the phonetic murmurs without a comprehension to what they mean. 

Esse aut non esse, quod dictum est:
Utrum iam nobilior in mente pati
De fundis sagittisque detracti in insana Fortuna
Aut arma capere contra mare angustiae,
Et contra eos usque ad mortem, somnum
Amplius, et per somnum, ad finem dicimus
Cor-DOLOR, et mille Natural shocks
Quod caro heres? Iam consummatio
Pie esse voluit.

Comprehension or understanding makes it a whole lot easier to remember and recall the passage.  When one understands what is being said, one can also summarize and put into one's own words the gist of the idea. 

To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep
No more; and by a sleep, to say we end
The heart-ache, and the thousand Natural shocks
That Flesh is heir to? 'Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished.

Translation courtesy of google.


Musically speaking, examine what is going on harmonically, rhythmically, structurally.  Are there recognizable patterns such as scales, rhythmic cells, leitmotifs, fugal or canonical themes.  As ajspiano mentioned above, it is often possible to recognize a single chord or scale in use within a large section of complex music. 

With regard to Bach's music.  Have a look at his chorales.  They give a good straightforward picture to Bach's harmonic thinking.  Go back to your Bach piece in question and try to think of it harmonically in the form of a chorale. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_chorale_harmonisations_by_Johann_Sebastian_Bach

[larapool]

This has all been very helpful.  Over the past three days, since I started learning Bach's Prelude in E Minor (BWV 938) I have already memorized the first half of the piece!  The past two nights I have even been memorizing 8 bars at a time because I have gotten more familiar with the piece, the patterns, etc. and I'm enjoying it.  Now I need to learn to keep this pace up with everything else I practice. 

[ajspiano]

Comprehension or understanding makes it a whole lot easier to remember and recall the passage.  When one understands what is being said, one can also summarize and put into one's own words the gist of the idea. 

I like this.. 

Sometimes I use a similar way to show the same thing.. 

take any english sentence..  atleast 10 or so words.

eg. "Over the past three days, since I started learning Bach's Prelude in E Minor, I have already memorized the first half of the piece!"

then totally jumble it

days started I since Bach's E have first of memorized minor the already half piece (and so on for all the words)

read each sentence once through..  which one do you remember?

it also highlights the necessity for small chunks, the jumbled sentence is not that hard to memorise if you do it in 4 word groups, - the normal sentence is extremely easy to remember when done in small groups.

Its also easier to remember the regular sentence in small groups that are whole phrases -
1.  Over the past three days
2.  Since I started learning Bach's Prelude in E Minor
3.  I have already memorized the first half of the piece!

This can perhaps be related to understanding whole chord progressions, or recognising melodic structure and development of a theme.

[rmbarbosa]

Your method works very well. But it`s very important to link the secction you are playing with the first note of the next secction: /cgha....g/c, for example. This avoids memory mistakes when we are playing in public.