Ravel's piano works suitability for conservatoire students

[fredsilva]

Greetings everyone

I've got a doubt as to what year of a piano conservatoire a student should be faced with Ravel's piano works, in special Ma Mere l'oye suite, without having a rather frustrating experience due to a certain lack of skill or technique. What's your take on this subject?

Best wishes

[fftransform]

Ma Mere l'Oye is piano duet, is it not?  I'm unaware of a solo piano transcription.  The duet is not especially difficult, compared to some of his other works.  A lot of Ravel's music would be appropriate for a student; the only pieces that would probably be "inappropriate" would be Le Tombeau de Couperin, Gaspard de la Nuit, and the Miroirs, Nos. 3/4.  Perhaps La Valse, or if this is a poor student, the Sonatine.  I would suggest the Sonatine or the Valses Nobles et Sentimentales, for a serious work by Ravel that would be appropriate to the average, serious student's technique.  Gaspard, Miroir No. 4 and the Toccata from the Tombeau are just about as tough as it gets in the standard repertoire; these would be inappropriate for anyone other than a fairly exceptional student.  But Debussy wrote a lot of pieces that would be more accessible than those of Ravel.  Why such interest in Ravel?

By the way, there is also the wonderful Piano Trio and the Concerto for Left Hand; both are doable.

[fredsilva]

My interest lies in the mystical atmosphere created by the great majority of Ravel's piano pieces I've heard. There are subltleties of a wide range of nature in it, great number of which I relate to.

By the way, I'm not on your facebook but if you'd like to add me, feel free: https://www.facebook.com/FredericoSSilva

Best wishes

[werq34ac]

Is Alborada really that difficult? I mean I played it, but I feel its difficulty is greatly exaggerated.

And you didn't mention Jeux D'eau, which is probably as difficult as the Valses Sentimentales et Nobles or the easier Miroirs.


And probably the easiest (but by no means easy) is Pavane for a Dead Princess (I can never spell the French name correctly..).

[prongated]

Ma Mere l'Oye is piano duet, is it not?  I'm unaware of a solo piano transcription.  The duet is not especially difficult, compared to some of his other works.  A lot of Ravel's music would be appropriate for a student; the only pieces that would probably be "inappropriate" would be Le Tombeau de Couperin, Gaspard de la Nuit, and the Miroirs, Nos. 3/4.  Perhaps La Valse, or if this is a poor student, the Sonatine.  I would suggest the Sonatine or the Valses Nobles et Sentimentales, for a serious work by Ravel that would be appropriate to the average, serious student's technique.  Gaspard, Miroir No. 4 and the Toccata from the Tombeau are just about as tough as it gets in the standard repertoire; these would be inappropriate for anyone other than a fairly exceptional student.  But Debussy wrote a lot of pieces that would be more accessible than those of Ravel.  Why such interest in Ravel?

By the way, there is also the wonderful Piano Trio and the Concerto for Left Hand; both are doable.

Are you serious the Piano Trio and Concerto are very difficult, as are both Valses Nobles et Sentimentales and La Valse!

Greetings everyone

I've got a doubt as to what year of a piano conservatoire a student should be faced with Ravel's piano works, in special Ma Mere l'oye suite, without having a rather frustrating experience due to a certain lack of skill or technique. What's your take on this subject?

Best wishes

If you want to and you think you can, or it will be good for you (or your teacher thinks so), then go for it. That's all that matters - year at piano conservatory means nothing (I know 1st years that are ready to play Rach 3 as well as 4th years that will find Saint-Saens 2 challenging.

[fftransform]

Are you serious the Piano Trio and Concerto are very difficult, as are both Valses Nobles et Sentimentales and La Valse!

The Piano Concerto for Left Hand is not particularly difficult (it is easier than Grieg/Beethoven 3, even; it is even easier than the Gershwin), nor are the Valses Nobles et Sentimentales.  He did not ask, "what is an appropriate piece for a nine year old."  He asked, "what is an appropriate piece for a conservatory student."  This is also different than, "what is appropriate for a piano performance major at a non-conservatory university."  And I listed La Valse as a piece that would be more appropriate for a higher-level student.  But it is not "very difficult" by professional, concert repertoire standards, particularly if you're playing the 1st version.  The Piano Trio is also not especially difficult.  It is really not that difficult at all, in actuality.  Is it that you are unfamiliar with these works, or that they are difficult for you?

[fftransform]

Is Alborada really that difficult? I mean I played it, but I feel its difficulty is greatly exaggerated.

And you didn't mention Jeux D'eau, which is probably as difficult as the Valses Sentimentales et Nobles or the easier Miroirs.


And probably the easiest (but by no means easy) is Pavane for a Dead Princess (I can never spell the French name correctly..).

I didn't mention Jeax d'Eau because I assumed that the person was asking for substantial works.

[prongated]

The Piano Concerto for Left Hand is not particularly difficult (it is easier than Grieg/Beethoven 3, even; it is even easier than the Gershwin), nor are the Valses Nobles et Sentimentales.  He did not ask, "what is an appropriate piece for a nine year old."  He asked, "what is an appropriate piece for a conservatory student."  This is also different than, "what is appropriate for a piano performance major at a non-conservatory university."  And I listed La Valse as a piece that would be more appropriate for a higher-level student.  But it is not "very difficult" by professional, concert repertoire standards, particularly if you're playing the 1st version.  The Piano Trio is also not especially difficult.  It is really not that difficult at all, in actuality.  Is it that you are unfamiliar with these works, or that they are difficult for you?

You say that, yet you think Gaspard, Le Tombeau, and Miroirs are "probably inappropriate" for Conservatory students I've heard high school kids play Ondine and Miroirs remarkably well.

La Valse not very difficult by professional standard? Well, d'oh! Balakirev's Islamey is also not difficult for Evgeny Kissin. Piano trio not especially difficult? Just like La Valse, the first page isn't. Please, play the entire thing before you say it's easy - it's so cheap and easy to say something is easy.

[fftransform]

You say that, yet you think Gaspard, Le Tombeau, and Miroirs are "probably inappropriate" for Conservatory students I've heard high school kids play Ondine and Miroirs remarkably well.

La Valse not very difficult by professional standard? Well, d'oh! Balakirev's Islamey is also not difficult for Evgeny Kissin. Piano trio not especially difficult? Just like La Valse, the first page isn't. Please, play the entire thing before you say it's easy - it's so cheap and easy to say something is easy.

Are you therefore insinuating that La Valse is more difficult than Ondine?  If so, no additional rebuttal of mine is necessary.  However, I fail to see how it is more difficult to say that a piece is easy, than it is to say that a piece is hard.  Each has the same number of letters.

[werq34ac]

I didn't mention Jeax d'Eau because I assumed that the person was asking for substantial works.

Substantial? As in length? or musical value, although seeing as Jeux D'eau isn't lacking musically, I assume you mean length. Does length even matter? Well, under 3 minutes is a bit short, but Jeux D'eau is about 5 isn't it? Although not exactly long, why shouldn't it be any less "substantial" than Miroirs or Ma Mere L'Oye?

And I don't see how Alborada is any more difficult than La Valse.

[symphonicdance]

In UK piano exam (ABRSM / Trinity), Gaspard is placed in the fellowship syllabus. 

Most others (e.g. menuet antique, miroirs, jeau d'eau, toccata of le tombeau de couperin) are in the licentiate syllabus.

Pavane pour une infante defunte and A la maniere de Borodin waltz are in the associate/diploma syllabus. 

[teccomin]

If you are looking for a substantial work that is not overly difficult, try Sonatine.

[lontano]

Greetings everyone

I've got a doubt as to what year of a piano conservatoire a student should be faced with Ravel's piano works, in special Ma Mere l'oye suite, without having a rather frustrating experience due to a certain lack of skill or technique. What's your take on this subject?

Best wishes

Wow. This starts out questioning if "Ma Mere lóye" (which Ravel arranged for solo piano), not a very difficult piece, is too much for a first year conservatory student. Then there's all these posts about nearly all of Ravel's piano works (Gaspard, Valse Nobles, Jeux D'eau, Concerto for LH, Miroirs, etc) being relatively easy!
Give me a break! I'm barely just an amateur (still, after 55 years of playing ). While I'm able to play Ma Mere fairly well, I don't claim to be able to perform just about any other Ravel, but I've worked with a LOT of piano students and professionals to have some idea of the difference between degrees of difficulty. These works you are suggesting for a 1st year student having frustrations due to lack of skill & technique are ridiculous IMHO. Do you actually think such a student could just pick up a score for Gaspard or Miroirs and polish them up for performance when they're having a problem with "Ma Mere lóye"? Get serious. April Fools Day is 2 months away!

Might I suggest these: "Menuet antique", "Habanera", "Menuet sur le nom d'Haydn", the Pavan or the Berceuse; and if/when the student is ready move on to the Sonatine or Jeux D'eau. Not the Concerto for the Left Hand!

Lontano

[werq34ac]

Wow. This starts out questioning if "Ma Mere lóye" (which Ravel arranged for solo piano), not a very difficult piece, is too much for a first year conservatory student. Then there's all these posts about nearly all of Ravel's piano works (Gaspard, Valse Nobles, Jeux D'eau, Concerto for LH, Miroirs, etc) being relatively easy!
Give me a break! I'm barely just an amateur (still, after 55 years of playing ). While I'm able to play Ma Mere fairly well, I don't claim to be able to perform just about any other Ravel, but I've worked with a LOT of piano students and professionals to have some idea of the difference between degrees of difficulty. These works you are suggesting for a 1st year student having frustrations due to lack of skill & technique are ridiculous IMHO. Do you actually think such a student could just pick up a score for Gaspard or Miroirs and polish them up for performance when they're having a problem with "Ma Mere lóye"? Get serious. April Fools Day is 2 months away!

Might I suggest these: "Menuet antique", "Habanera", "Menuet sur le nom d'Haydn", the Pavan or the Berceuse; and if/when the student is ready move on to the Sonatine or Jeux D'eau. Not the Concerto for the Left Hand!

Lontano

But we AREN"T recommending Miroirs and Gaspard. We are saying that the OP should AVOID these pieces, though in my opinion Alborada wasn't as difficult as fftransform makes it sound.

And of course, Jeux D'eau and the Valses Nobles and the Sonatine ARE relatively easy compared to Gaspard de la Nuit, although just about everything is easy compared to Gaspard de la Nuit. Anyway, we're not saying that Jeux D'eau is easy. We're saying it's one of Ravel's easier pieces.

[lontano]

But we AREN"T recommending Miroirs and Gaspard. We are saying that the OP should AVOID these pieces, though in my opinion Alborada wasn't as difficult as fftransform makes it sound.

And of course, Jeux D'eau and the Valses Nobles and the Sonatine ARE relatively easy compared to Gaspard de la Nuit, although just about everything is easy compared to Gaspard de la Nuit. Anyway, we're not saying that Jeux D'eau is easy. We're saying it's one of Ravel's easier pieces.

I think the operative word here is relatively. Jeux déau may be easier than Ondine, but that has nothing to do with the original question. And I can't find anything in the whole thread asking for relative degrees of difficulty among Ravel's most difficult works, which is what all these posts were arguing, when none of it addressed the original question.

Sorry if I'm sounding a bit riled up. I guess this thread just hit a nerve or something.

L.

[werq34ac]

I don't see why Jeux D'eau has nothing to do with the original question. I know several HIGH SCHOOLERS who have played Jeux D'eau quite well. SO woudln't one expect it to be manageable for a conservatory student? We should all keep in mind how ambiguous "conservatoire students" is. I mean I know 1st year conservatory students who are playing pieces like Miroirs and La Valse while the OP implies these pieces aren't suitable for 1st year conservatory students.


And this discussion of relative difficulty of Ravel pieces was sparked by fftransform's delusions that Alborada del Gracioso is one of the most difficult pieces in piano repertoire while La Valse comes no where close.



And I've heard the 2-piano transcription of Ma Mere L'Oye is incredibly difficult just based on how difficult it is to play single notes together based on nothing but eye contact.

[fftransform]

And this discussion of relative difficulty of Ravel pieces was sparked by fftransform's delusions that Alborada del Gracioso is one of the most difficult pieces in piano repertoire while La Valse comes no where close.

Please explain why nobody - with the exemption of Berezovsky in some passages - has performed or even recorded it at tempo, whereas La Valse is one of the most popular pieces in under 18/21 piano competitions.  The only reason somebody would think that Miroir 4 is not difficult is because it does not sound "flashy" and they have only a rudimentary understanding of what types of things can actually pose serious difficulties in a piece.  For instance, I would assume that the same person would say that Triana is also not "very difficult," because they aren't actually a pianist.  Please don't spread your ego-driven misinformation when it is at the expense of somebody else receiving a useful answer.

Fastest performance:

Average performance is a minute and a half (30%) slower.


Since it's so easy and you play it, can you post a rec?  Thanks; looking forward to it.  I know you're probably busy with your professional career as a pianist, so just the last page would be fine.

[werq34ac]

First off, I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying it's not as difficult as you are insinuating it is.

Actually that's far from the best performance of that piece. It's not even the fastest. Well average speed is, but that's only because he plays the middle section much faster than most (although I'm not criticizing that). Everyone who's played this piece knows the true difficulty lies in repeated notes and the coda and Berovsky plays those just as fast (or as slow, glass is half full half empty take your pick) as just about all recordings I've heard.  

I probably should have worded it better: I don't see how La Valse is any less difficult than Alborada del Gracioso. And what do you mean no one's recorded at tempo? Tempo is Dotted quarter=92 which is actually slower than you might think.


As for recording it, I did perform it, but I tended to rush the repeated notes. I'm dropping the piece temporarily and picking it back up in the Summer. There's a few kinks I want to work out too. I never said the piece was easy. I'm just saying it's difficulty is greatly exaggerated. Besides, like you said, how is it anymore difficult to say a piece is hard than it is easy? They both have 4 letters.


Edit: Plus, this is by far a much better recording of Alborada