Chopin scherzos & ballades

[mussorgsky]

I like Chopin's scherzos & ballades very much and I would like to play them. Which are the easiest of them? Which are good for starting with? I would love to hear from you!

[birba]

Good question.  Assuming you've already done maybe 10 of the 24 etudes, 3 or 4 nocturnes, a few of the harder waltzes, you might be ready to do the first scherzo or the 3rd ballade.  But, of course, "easy" and "difficult" are pretty subjective terms.

[gn622]

we all want to play these 8 works as they are one of the best pieces of piano music ever created.

[costicina]

Last year I was so presumptuos to tackle the second Scherzo and the first Ballade. Needless to say,  I had to give up: they're really arduous, both from the technical and the musical point of view... Anyway, I learned a lot in the process of trying to learn them (not only my limits  ), so it was not an utterly negative experience...
Give a try if you feel like that, but forget the adjective "easy": none of them can be defined so....

[49410enrique]

these along with the op. 10 and 25 comprise (as sets) some of the most challenging, technbically and musically , works we have by Chopin.  Chances are that if you are having to question whether or not you can/should attempt them you are probably not quite there yet. by all means do not take this as a put down, but rather what I have found from experience with these and other works, sort of like 'if you have to ask how much it costs, you probably can't afford it..'

the best way is simply to listen and read along with a score and find the one you connect with the most emotionally, then spend time reading it, if after consistently working with it for a couple of months you are still struggling with the most basic elements just set it down for a while and work something else and come back when you've grown a bit technically and musically.  either way you win since you can still benefit from attempting a very challenging piece even if you don't complete it right then and there. a good teacher/instructor is of immense help here too.

[candlelightpiano]

Good question.  Assuming you've already done maybe 10 of the 24 etudes, 3 or 4 nocturnes, a few of the harder waltzes, you might be ready to do the first scherzo or the 3rd ballade.  But, of course, "easy" and "difficult" are pretty subjective terms.

Birba: Where does the Fantasie Impromptu fit into all those pieces you mentioned above?

[werq34ac]

I half agree with Birba. I do feel that you should have a good amount of experience with the etudes and some of the other pieces, but it feels a bit exaggerated. Personally, I tackled the 3rd ballade after 1 nocturne, 6 etudes, and being ripped apart on that piece several times. Yeah... I probably could have benefited from a few more etudes and nocturnes..

I personally don't like the waltzes very much at all with the exception of a couple.

And I'd like to add Barcarolle to the 9 most beautiful pieces written of all time. Personally, it's the most beautiful piece ever written.

[sparrowrc]

To me, Ballade no. 1 is the most beautiful piece that Chopin ever wrote.  Good luck to the fortunate few that can master this...

[birba]

Birba: Where does the Fantasie Impromptu fit into all those pieces you mentioned above?

I think the Berceuse, maybe the bolero, some of the harder waltzes, op. 10 no. 3 are maybe on the same level as the FI.  I don't know.  I'm probably talking through the top of my hat.  It's so difficult to place pieces on an "easy" to "difficult" scale.

[gn622]

Last year I was so presumptuos to tackle the second Scherzo and the first Ballade. Needless to say,  I had to give up: they're really arduous, both from the technical and the musical point of view... Anyway, I learned a lot in the process of trying to learn them (not only my limits  ), so it was not an utterly negative experience...
Give a try if you feel like that, but forget the adjective "easy": none of them can be defined so....

How far did you reach into the second scherzo? because i currently reached the middle section and considering to continue the piece. now im afraid that i wont be able to complete it 

[costicina]

I don't know your level; I stopped at bar 571, but the "leggiero" section with the arps (bb. 437-493), and the following section (agitato)  gave me a lot of troubles. I stopped because I realize I would not be able to perform it in a decent way.
If you are going to tackle the first Ballade, star with the coda Presto con fuoco. It's the hardest part, if you can manage it, maybe you can do the rest (not at all wasy, believe me)...

[gn622]

@ costicina, sorry but i have no idea what bars you're talking about, is it in the middle section a bit before the con fuco section? that part does seem extremely hard.

I'm wondering if the middle section is  a huge technical jump compared to the first seven pages (i can play there pages up to speed without an difficulty at all)

[gn622]

@ costicina, sorry but i have no idea what bars you're talking about, is it in the middle section a bit before the con fuco section? that part does seem extremely hard.

I'm wondering if the middle section is  a huge technical jump compared to the first seven pages (i can play there pages up to speed without an difficulty at all)

Edit: im talking about the scherzo

[costicina]

Yes, more or less that' s the point: from there on, it gets very difficult... But it's a very subjective matter. If you really wanna leanr this piece, I think that with patience and determination you can tame it... give it a try!!! As I said, it won't be wasted time....

[candlelightpiano]

I think the Berceuse, maybe the bolero, some of the harder waltzes, op. 10 no. 3 are maybe on the same level as the FI.  I don't know.  I'm probably talking through the top of my hat.  It's so difficult to place pieces on an "easy" to "difficult" scale.

Thank you, Birba.  I was hoping to learn to play the Scherzo #2 in B flat minor after FI. Do you think I could learn the Scherzo after FI?

[mussorgsky]

Is Scherzo 3 harder than Scherzo 2?

[costicina]

It's shorter, and if you have good octaves, can be considered "easier", or better slighlty less difficult...

[mussorgsky]

Yes, chords and octaves are bether on me (arpeggios too) instead scales or scale-like cascade passages.

[costicina]

Thank you, Birba.  I was hoping to learn to play the Scherzo #2 in B flat minor after FI. Do you think I could learn the Scherzo after FI?

Hi Choo Choo,
of course, I’m not a teacher nor an expert, so my opinion doesn’t count that much, but Birba is right : Scherzos and Ballades are tough pieces (and very long, too: you risk to get tired of them and discouraged after 4 pages). Why don’t you try some Etudes?

Op 25 n 1, “Aeolian harp”, is gorgeous and not excessively hard. You’ve already learned from the FI (in the LH part) the rotation “circling” movement of the hand. The main difficulty here is that RH plays both the melody (with the pinky   ) and the accompainment. I learned that Etude, and is very rewarding.  Here is a link to my favorite performance:

.

The Revolutionary, too, is not impossibile (if I’ve learned it, you sure can do it!!)

Another beautiful and show off piece is the Prelude n 8; it seems more difficult than it is (but I’m not saying it’s “easy”). It has a similar pattern of 25/1 since RH plays both  melody and accompainment. Here is a link to one beautiful performance of it

.
There is also an interesting tutorial video of Paul Barton on  this piece:

One last suggestion: Etude op 25 n 12, “Ocean”. It's classified by someone among the “easy ones”, others consider it very advanced (I’m afraid the latter are right).  But it’s such a  gorgeous piece !!! Listen to this astounding performance:  "

" f I’m planning to learn it along with my Prokofiev…

OMG, I'm speaking like Mrs. Know-all.... I'm sorry

Keep on with the FI!!!

Margherita

[costicina]

xxx

[mussorgsky]

And another question: is ballade 1 the hardest and which of the ballades is the easiest?

[werq34ac]

@ costicina, sorry but i have no idea what bars you're talking about, is it in the middle section a bit before the con fuco section? that part does seem extremely hard.

I'm wondering if the middle section is  a huge technical jump compared to the first seven pages (i can play there pages up to speed without an difficulty at all)

If you can handle the last, say 4 pages, then scherzo 2 isn't too difficult. (I read through it!) the leggiero section gave me a little trouble at first but after about half an hour it warmed up.

And another question: is ballade 1 the hardest and which of the ballades is the easiest?

The order of difficulty of the balladesfrom easiest (but by no means easy) to most difficult is 3124. 1 and 3 are considered the easiest and the only reason 1 is more difficult than 3 is the coda of 1. The 4th ballade is considered to be Chopin's masterpiece and requires the technical skill of the most difficult Chopin etudes and immense musical maturity.

As for the Scherzos, I'm not sure whether 3 or 1 is easier, but 4 is the most difficult. Actually 1, 2 and 3 are fairly similar in difficulty although 2 is the most difficult of the 3.


As for the Ocean etude, I wouldn't say it's one of the harder ones, though I wouldn't say it's one of the easiest ones either. It's a monster to clean up and endurance is a big issue.

[gn622]

If you can handle the last, say 4 pages, then scherzo 2 isn't too difficult. (I read through it!) the leggiero section gave me a little trouble at first but after about half an hour it warmed up.

The order of difficulty of the balladesfrom easiest (but by no means easy) to most difficult is 3124. 1 and 3 are considered the easiest and the only reason 1 is more difficult than 3 is the coda of 1. The 4th ballade is considered to be Chopin's masterpiece and requires the technical skill of the most difficult Chopin etudes and immense musical maturity.

As for the Scherzos, I'm not sure whether 3 or 1 is easier, but 4 is the most difficult. Actually 1, 2 and 3 are fairly similar in difficulty although 2 is the most difficult of the 3.


As for the Ocean etude, I wouldn't say it's one of the harder ones, though I wouldn't say it's one of the easiest ones either. It's a monster to clean up and endurance is a big issue.

Hi thanks for replying to my question  

The problem is, im planning to learn the second scherzo with my teacher soon and i dont want to find it extremely difficult and then give up.
Both my teacher and i "think" that i can handle it considering i can play the first 7 pages,but now im afraid that the coda and the middle section are going to be a monster  

EDIT: so my question is, how is the rest of the scherzo is compared to the first 7 pages in terms of difficulty?

[werq34ac]

Hi thanks for replying to my question 

The problem is, im planning to learn the second scherzo with my teacher soon and i dont want to find it extremely difficult and then give up.
Both my teacher and i "think" that i can handle it considering i can play the first 7 pages,but now im afraid that the coda and the middle section are going to be a monster 

EDIT: so my question is, how is the rest of the scherzo is compared to the first 7 pages in terms of difficulty?

If you can handle the first 7 pages with relative ease, then it shouldn't be too much of a problem. It might be big project, but I don't think you will find it "extremely difficult and then give up."

[candlelightpiano]

Margherita:  Thanks for your suggestions and videos. I appreciate your taking the time to think it through and come up with helpful suggestions.

For me, the most important thing is my passion for a piece of music. So if I have little or no interest in a piece, I will not complete it. Even though some of the etudes and the prelude you mentioned would perhaps be less challenging, they don't arouse my passion to the degree that the second scherzo or the first ballade does. Fantasie Impromptu is also a big challenge for me but I love the piece with all my heart. You said you would sell your soul to the devil to play the Diabolical. I feel the same for the FI!!!!        I do love the Etude in E major, though.

[costicina]

You are right, Choo Choo, 
if you are free to choose whatever piece you like, go for the one you are in love with. You'll be ready to slave at the piano with ferocious determination.
The Second Scherzo is really gorgeous, and IMO less difficult than the 1° Ballade (but this remanis one of the most beautiful piano pieces ever written).  I learned the first 6-7 pages of the Scherzo. If you decide to tackle it, maybe I can give you some suggestion....

Margherita

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, Margherita. I appreciate your offer very much. At the moment, though, I need to be focused on FI. Hoping to record two videos tonight for my thread. When I've completed FI, I definitely want to begin the second Scherzo. Probably another blog type thing. I find it more motivating than practicing on my own. It's fun to have the input of other members and also to have other members who are practicing it or interested in learning it follow along. FI may take me a year but it will be worthwhile in the end. I know I'll be working on it for the rest of my life even after I complete it.

[gn622]

I just played the con fuco ( not the coda) of the second scherzo and didn;t find it challenging at all, does that mean that the entire piece shouldn't be impossible for me?

[costicina]

Why don't you try and see it by yourself if it's impossibile?

[gn622]

I don't have the time to play the entire thing (im horrible at reading) and im afraid that ill waste lessons with my teacher because it'll be difficult and ill give up.

since i started piano i only wasted one lesson and it was the worst feeling ever.

[werq34ac]

I just played the con fuco ( not the coda) of the second scherzo and didn;t find it challenging at all, does that mean that the entire piece shouldn't be impossible for me?

I think that's the most difficult section.. maybe it's just difficult to sight read.

I think it would be worth trying out the coda since some of the runs can be a little awkward, in particular the E major descending run and the A major run descending run. The ones I'm talking about are the ones that already appeared in Db major right after the first page.

[jesc]

That's odd, when I clicked this thread I was expecting everyone calling out "Play Scherzo 2, it's the easiest!". I find it odd that it's actually the piece being discussed in detail when I entered the thread lol.  

Well, that will also give the OP an idea of how popular the second scherzo is, and how overplayed. IIRC Liszt banned this piece from his student's repertoire. Personally, I kinda liked it and I understand why everyone's playing it.

I would recommend starting with the Scherzos, then off to the ballades. On the ballades, I would recommend ballade 3 to start off cause I managed to play near to the end of it when I was 15 or so. But TBH I didn't finish it back then.

Nice, this thread reminded me to get back to the 3rd ballade I started decades ago lol.
  
Correction: I just realized that the OP might be younger than 15 (which makes one of my statements above nonsensical). It was just to convey that Ballade 3 was the most accessible of the 4.

[fftransform]

S1<S2<S3<B3<B1<S4<B2<B4

I don't think many would disagree with that.  Maybe some permutations in the S2/S3/B3, but otherwise, I think 90%+ would agree with that.  I see a lot of people here saying Scherzo 2 is harder than Scherzo 3 (I don't know; have only played the 3rd and 4th ones, personally.  I think the 1st-3rd Scherzi are sort of crappy pieces, especially No. 2, but had to learn No. 3 at one point) but most people will list the difficulty of the Scherzi in numerical order.  Have you looked at the Barcarolle, Fantasy Op. 49 and the Polonaise-Fantasie?  Those pieces have somewhat similar character, and IMO are better than any of the first three Scherzi.  The Fantasy Op. 49 is actually fairly easy, as far as Chopin's output goes.

[symphonicdance]

I'm neither a teacher nor a professional.  Just wanna share my humble thoughts and experience.

Personally I find that no. 3 is easiest amongst the 4 scherzos.  Interestingly, it is again no. 3 the easiest amongst the 4 ballades.  Having said that, like many other suggested, all eight of them are difficult technically by nature, and yet they are so beautifully written. 

I also view that besides technical requirements, it is also important to be able to learn the background of these pieces, what Chopin might have in mind when writing them.  In a piece (e.g. scherzo no 2 and ballade no 4), whilst some melodies/sections repeat 3 times, one should know how to play them (slightly) differently.  The most difficult one amongst all eight, to me, would be ballade no. 4.

Good luck.  If you do want to play them, I think you can do it, provided that you have the passion, patience, endeavor, time, etc.  Of course, a lot, a lot more, if you want to play them in concert pianist's standards.

[danhuyle]

I would learn the 4 Scherzi and Fantasie Op49 before the 4 Ballades.

With the Scherzi I'm not too worried about the technique and they're tempting to rush. Scherzo 3 I find the ascending scale, the one where you have to play hands together, is technically the most tricky for me.

Like any other piece, it's the ability to interpret. If you interpret one well, you'll have an easier time learning the rest.

[werq34ac]

I would learn the 4 Scherzi and Fantasie Op49 before the 4 Ballades.

With the Scherzi I'm not too worried about the technique and they're tempting to rush. Scherzo 3 I find the ascending scale, the one where you have to play hands together, is technically the most tricky for me.

Like any other piece, it's the ability to interpret. If you interpret one well, you'll have an easier time learning the rest.

But what of Scherzo 4? Ballade 3 is much easier

[fftransform]

Yes, I think that people are underestimating the difficulty of Scherzo No. 4.  It is a very weird piece, in that it's extremely episodic, unlike almost all of Chopin's work.  It's almost more like a piece by Liszt, but in Chopin's harmonic language.  Interpreting it will not come naturally at all.  It's quite uncomfortable, in that way.

[candlelightpiano]

Well, I only have to say that I'd like to learn Scherzo 2 after Fantasie Impromptu. Then, Ballade 1. All in that order.

[naaga]

I'm studying scherzo n. 2 at the moment: it didn't took me much time to read it but i find it difficult musically: i play it and think "why does it sound so boring when i play it and not when i listen to it?" 

I have to change something!!

however it's not impossible, even if you're blocked on the first pages don't think about it and try to read along, do as many mistakes as you please and THEN, if you really find it too difficult stop.

this is my advice but I'm not a teacher 

good luck!

[chopinlover96]

S1<S2<S3<B3<B1<S4<B2<B4

Where would you put the Barcarolle in that list??

[werq34ac]

Where would you put the Barcarolle in that list??

My teacher puts it after Ballade 4! technically speaking it's probably comparable to ballade 1, however musically it's probably Chopin's most difficult.

[teccomin]

My teacher puts it after Ballade 4! technically speaking it's probably comparable to ballade 1, however musically it's probably Chopin's most difficult.

I thought Barcarolle is more intuitive to play. The lyric line is very straight forward and not as convoluted as the Ballade. The major difficulty of the Barcarolle is playing chord legatos.

[fftransform]

Where would you put the Barcarolle in that list??

Not sure.  The Barcarolle and Polonaise-Fantasie are a bit tricky to say "it goes here" very definitively.  So, this would just be my totally subjective opinion, only having played about half of these pieces:

Op. 49 < S1 < S2 < S3 < B3 < Op. 60 < B1 < Op. 61 < S4 < B2 < B4

Of course this has nothing to do with the quality of the pieces.  IMO Op. 49 is the best in that list.

[teccomin]

Not sure.  The Barcarolle and Polonaise-Fantasie are a bit tricky to say "it goes here" very definitively.  So, this would just be my totally subjective opinion, only having played about half of these pieces:

Op. 49 < S1 < S2 < S3 < B3 < Op. 60 < B1 < Op. 61 < S4 < B2 < B4

Of course this has nothing to do with the quality of the pieces.  IMO Op. 49 is the best in that list.

Lets add in the 2 concertos, Allegro de Concert and 3 Sonatas to make it more fun

[chopinlover96]

Lets add in the 2 concertos, Allegro de Concert and 3 Sonatas to make it more fun

Yeh and maybe the Grande Polonaise Brilliante,Heroic Poloansie and the Op 44 Polonaise!!

[fftransform]

That's getting too out of hand.  I will say that Op. 46 is probably harder than any of the other pieces in the original list, but I think a lot of people with say Ballade No. 4 is harder, just because the Allegro de Concert is such a crappy piece.

[gn622]

Anyone have any idea about how many pages the first scherzo has without  counting the repeats

[werq34ac]

Anyone have any idea about how many pages the first scherzo has without  counting the repeats

There's only really about 9ish pages of it that has to be learned, the rest is pretty much repeat maybe with a little bit of variation.

[gn622]

There's only really about 9ish pages of it that has to be learned, the rest is pretty much repeat maybe with a little bit of variation.

thanks a lot.

[mussorgsky]

Thank you all for your advices!