How do you teach a student who's slow in both reading and memory?

[raindropshome]

Hi all,

I was talking about myself when I asked the above question. I'm slow in memorizing a piece. A Bach invention will take me 2 month to memorize vs someone I saw online yesterday 2 hours! And my sight reading is nonexistent.  I've been playing piano for a couple years on and off. I feel the technical difficulty of this invention is at my level. However taking this long to memorize does not result in productive lessons. The teacher has nothing to teach because I have no progress week after week.

I'm asking all the experienced teachers in this site, how do you choose a proper repertoire for this kind of student so that it's musically interesting, technically challenging and doesn't take ages to memorize?

Also, anyone has different GOOD versions of utube for Invention 13 will be great if you can share. I only have Andras Schiff and Glenn Gould which I think are model pianists and will not mislead me.

P.S. I forgot to mention, I'm not able to play fluently until I memorized it simply bc my fingers can't find the keys when my eyes are on the music. Not for invention 13.

Thank you in advance for your valuable opinion.

[jpahmad]

Do you use the same fingering everytime you play it?

[lostinidlewonder]

A Bach invention will take me 2 month to memorize vs someone I saw online yesterday 2 hours! And my sight reading is nonexistent.  

To be able to completely memorize a piece in rapid time you need to have a lot of experience with movements that you might find in that piece. If you are subjected to movements which you have no or little experience with then of course it will take you longer to learn, that is the same for everyone no matter how good they are at the piano.

So the task becomes experiencing many examples of certain movements, this can of course come from years of memorizing many small pieces but it most efficiently develops through sight reading. Developing your sight reading skills usually always starts below your actual playing level. You may be able to say play grade 5 but your sight reading might be grade 1! This is a common situation for most students that do examinations. Especially here in Australia where sight reading does not contribute to a great deal of marks for examinations, students can receive distinction grades and their sight reading/learning rate is quite inefficient.

Work out what level of music you can comfortably sightread from start to finish, it doesn't have to be perfectly played but predominantly controlled with good fingering. Make a daily habit to read a lot of music at this level, there is of course nothing wrong with working with harder pieces but usually we slow the tempo down. I find after reading a lot of harder works moving back to the piece which are at your level become somewhat easier to read. This mental trick is common in other skills and something I experience when studying speed reading (one technique I used was forcing myself to read faster than I normally could for a certain period of time then reverting back to a more normal reading speed, this slightly increased my normal reading speed).

I find however more people expose themselves to works which are too difficult for their reading level. This sets you up for inefficient learning and should be avoided. It is difficult to humble oneself and start reading works which are at your level, most people get bored and then jump to pieces which they want to learn (which they might be able to physically play but because their reading skill doesn't match it they only can learn it at an inefficient rate). I always encourage my students to learn many small easier pieces rather than larger more difficult pieces. Of course it is important to extend yourself and experiment with more advanced pieces but there is a point not to invest too much of your time with this.

There are numerous posts on pianostreet that you can search for improving sight reading that might interest you.

I've been playing piano for a couple years on and off. I feel the technical difficulty of this invention is at my level. However taking this long to memorize does not result in productive lessons. The teacher has nothing to teach because I have no progress week after week.

A teacher should be able to act as a catalyst for your learning rate. They should give you tricks how to visualize phrases of music, show you patterns in the fingering which are repeated throughout the piece, help you to consciously understand what you need to play. They do not only have to work with your sound and technique, but also get into your mind and help you become aware of issues you otherwise would not consider. Unfortunately not all teachers do this and just work with finger numbers and sound, I had a number of teachers like that myself in the past as a music student. Ask your teacher to explain tricks that might help you memorize the music, get them to highlight patterns for you that you can appreciate.  Ask them for a number of easier Bach pieces which you might practice fingering and sight reading with.

...how do you choose a proper repertoire for this kind of student so that it's musically interesting, technically challenging and doesn't take ages to memorize?

This is a personal question which cannot be answered specifically without having a number of  lesson with a teacher. I would encourage the student to work out what level they can sight read effectively from start to finish, get them to notice all key signature patterns on the keyboard and be able to read effectively and play chords/scales/arpeggios and other patterns on those keys. Learning to sight the building blocks of music is a helpful tool, instead of reading a chord (for example) as individual notes an experienced reader would notice it in its entirety and their hand would react.

[fleetfingers]

Here is my favorite:

The person you mention, who memorized this in 2 hours, probably plays several levels above this Invention, is almost positively a good sight reader, has a good understanding of music theory, and has experience using effective memorizing techniques.

What I would suggest is to break it up into small sections and separate the hands. Set a goal to memorize one hand of a section each day. Once you have it memorized, return to the piano every few hours to review it. Also spend some time listening to the piece while reading the music and visualize yourself playing. See the music as a series of broken chords, rather than individual notes.

Your teacher can help you break up the Invention into sections that make musical sense and are appropriate lengths per your rate of learning, or just start and see how much you can do each day. But the rule is that it has to be short enough to memorize in one day - solidly enough that you can move on to another section the following day. One of the days can be spent memorizing the two hands together of a given section. Even though you already have them memorized separately, you will want to spend your practice time putting them together and watching your hands to memorize the movements you're making. Muscle memory should also kick in. Try playing without looking, to see if your hands have memorized what to do. At the end of a practice session, play through everything you have learned so far at least a couple of times. It's also a good idea to read through the whole piece at least once a day (I would do it at the very end of practice). But reading from beginning to end should not account for a significant portion of your practice time!

[raindropshome]

Thank you all for your great advices and a great recording.  I listened at lunch today, and my stomach stopped digesting food! This is a very exciting interpretation. I can't play this fast right now. I tried today, but it sounded odd. My tempo is even slower than Andras Schiff on the utube.

To answer jpahmad's question, yes, I always use the same fingering unless if certain parts don't work out then I change.

I really like your advices on how to memorize one hand first, then another, and using music theories (tricks) to help. Also on using the lower level sight reading material to practise. I just wish I had enough time to do all that. I can only play one hour/day, max an hour and half. I wish I didn't have to work.  Often get too tired after work to play.

I will discuss with my teacher about all my problems. She assigned me these two pieces without knowing my memory is such a problem. I started with her two months ago after dropping for about 5 months. But she knew my sight reading ability (if there is any) during our first lesson.

The other piece I'm playing right now is Brahms Waltz Op39, No.3. It's a g# minor. I never played any piece with so many black keys. My left hand gets very intense and my shoulder muscles feel sore if I play too long in a previous day. So I'm working out more these days!

I have another question. I listened to those great pianists' recording and my own recording. You can immidiately tell my recording is very "amateur". So I want to know what makes the difference? Is it the music expression, is it the cleaness? I'll be working on these two pieces for at least one or two months, so I want to work towards performance level(having afterall eventually memorized them. I think each time I memorize a piece I should throw a party because it's such a big deal! ). I will recital with a group of amateur musicians. I think at least for the most part my articulation and phrasing is correct. My piano is not as great as theirs (my usual excuses). My memorization is not perfect, my techinique is not fluent and easy. But is there anything else I can do to improve? I didn't mention my talent. Can we skip that? You should know me now.

[jpahmad]

raindropshome,

As far as you memory is concerned.  Are you able to get the piece into your finger memory?  I mean, I usually have a peice touch-memorized by just playing small segments (anywhere from 2-16 measures depending on your experience) in repetition.  This is by no means the correct, or I should say the final way to memorize a piece, but it gets the music in your fingers so you can at least play it fluently from start to finish by relying on your sense of touch alone.  After this, you would need to memorize it intellectually by looking at patterns, motifs, chords, harmonic progressions, etc..  Also, before you perform, make sure you can start the the music from anywhere in the score, well within reason.  I like to test myself by playing the music, then suddenly stopping, and while singing along in my head, try to pick it back up at any moment.  Once you can do this you should have no problem with memory. 

I once had a teacher that told me I had to be able to write out the score and that this was the test of true memorization.  I never tried.  Probably couldn't do it.

But, you definately need that finger memory to kick in and sort of take over in your sub-conscious.  This should start happening even while reading from the score.


As for your next question.  I think if you are happy with the way you play something, then that is good and you should be content.  If you want it to sound different, or better, for example, like so-and-so who plays it on youtube, then go after it and take one section at a time and do your best to make it sound that way.  99% percent of the battle of improving your sound/technique, is jsut simply having the desire to do so.  Because once you have the desire, and you know how you want a specific part to sound, then bam its off to the races and you won't be satisfied until you get it that way.  So reach for that higher level and push yourself.  It can be very frustrating at times but it's well worth it in the end.


jp